Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

Author
Discussion

sandman77

1,875 posts

110 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
Hazmat1 said:
Number from the stewards, specific to one side of the wing
Are you sure it came from the stewards? The only mention I have seen on the 0.2mm was a quote from Toto.
Sky have a video on YouTube where Ted shows the testing equipment and how it failed and it looks as though they don’t even measure the drs gap. If an 85mm diameter sphere can get through the gap with less than 10 newtons of pressure then it fails. It’s as simple as that.


rscott

12,752 posts

163 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
sandman77 said:
Hazmat1 said:
Number from the stewards, specific to one side of the wing
Are you sure it came from the stewards? The only mention I have seen on the 0.2mm was a quote from Toto.
Sky have a video on YouTube where Ted shows the testing equipment and how it failed and it looks as though they don’t even measure the drs gap. If an 85mm diameter sphere can get through the gap with less than 10 newtons of pressure then it fails. It’s as simple as that.
That's the test used to confirm compliance with the rules. But when measured, they found the 0.2mm gap, which was sufficient to mean it didn't present enough resistance, hence the failure.

sandman77

1,875 posts

110 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
rscott said:
That's the test used to confirm compliance with the rules. But when measured, they found the 0.2mm gap, which was sufficient to mean it didn't present enough resistance, hence the failure.
I know that’s what Toto said in an interview. I’m just curious if the stewards also released that info. If not I would take the 0.2mm with a pinch of salt.

HighwayStar

3,408 posts

116 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
sandman77 said:
rscott said:
That's the test used to confirm compliance with the rules. But when measured, they found the 0.2mm gap, which was sufficient to mean it didn't present enough resistance, hence the failure.
I know that’s what Toto said in an interview. I’m just curious if the stewards also released that info. If not I would take the 0.2mm with a pinch of salt.
It’s all there… it failed. 0.2mm or doesn’t matter. The car was legal on Sunday. Note the report states not intent re cheating.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...

oyster

10,751 posts

220 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
jsf said:
On a more serious note. They chose the wrong option for Max on downforce level if they wanted to match Mercedes straight line speed. Max was very slow on top speed, Lewis was not even the fastest in the race. Dont swallow the Red Bull Bullst, look at the stats.

SPEED TRAP KM/H
1 55 C. SAINZ 336.7
2 7 K. RAIKKONEN 335.6
3 10 P. GASLY 335.5
4 14 F. ALONSO 333.9
5 44 L. HAMILTON 333.2
6 31 E. OCON 332.6
7 18 L. STROLL 331.3
8 63 G. RUSSELL 330.1
9 4 L. NORRIS 328.2
10 16 C. LECLERC 327.9
11 11 S. PEREZ 327.6
12 3 D. RICCIARDO 327.3
13 99 A. GIOVINAZZI 325.2
14 6 N. LATIFI 323.2
15 77 V. BOTTAS 321.7
16 22 Y. TSUNODA 319.2
17 33 M. VERSTAPPEN 318.0
18 47 M. SCHUMACHER 317.0
19 5 S. VETTEL 316.2
20 9 N. MAZEPIN 314.4

FINISH LINE KM/H
10 P. GASLY 344.6
22 Y. TSUNODA 339.4
4 L. NORRIS 337.5
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 336.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 334.9
3 D. RICCIARDO 334.5
31 E. OCON 333.1
55 C. SAINZ 332.6
14 F. ALONSO 332.6
6 N. LATIFI 331.7
11 S. PEREZ 331.3
16 C. LECLERC 331.3
44 L. HAMILTON 330.3
63 G. RUSSELL 330.2
18 L. STROLL 329.8
5 S. VETTEL 329.0
77 V. BOTTAS 328.0
47 M. SCHUMACHER 325.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 325.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 321.7

INTERMEDIATE 1 KM/H
10 P. GASLY 333.8
31 E. OCON 333.8
7 K. RAIKKONEN 332.9
44 L. HAMILTON 332.9
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 332.0
18 L. STROLL 331.3
63 G. RUSSELL 331.2
3 D. RICCIARDO 331.1
14 F. ALONSO 330.8
4 L. NORRIS 330.7
5 S. VETTEL 330.3
22 Y. TSUNODA 330.0
16 C. LECLERC 329.6
47 M. SCHUMACHER 328.4
77 V. BOTTAS 327.4
55 C. SAINZ 325.3
11 S. PEREZ 325.2
9 N. MAZEPIN 324.2
6 N. LATIFI 322.5
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 315.6

INTERMEDIATE 2 KM/H
11 S. PEREZ 262.9
16 C. LECLERC 262.6
44 L. HAMILTON 261.1
4 L. NORRIS 261.1
55 C. SAINZ 260.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 260.1
77 V. BOTTAS 259.7
5 S. VETTEL 259.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 258.9
10 P. GASLY 257.8
6 N. LATIFI 257.2
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 255.8
14 F. ALONSO 255.5
47 M. SCHUMACHER 255.0
3 D. RICCIARDO 254.9
31 E. OCON 254.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 251.9
63 G. RUSSELL 251.5
22 Y. TSUNODA 251.2
18 L. STROLL 249.3
What parts of the circuit are those speeds at? (finish line is obvious)

Jasandjules

66,956 posts

201 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
I think they have got the rear dropping working well now. And then I think his engine is turned up to 11 to get every ounce of power out of it for the remaining races.. I suspect they kept giving Bottas new engines with the power Lewis is now using to test it for reliability.

sandman77

1,875 posts

110 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
It’s all there… it failed. 0.2mm or doesn’t matter. The car was legal on Sunday. Note the report states not intent re cheating.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...
No, you’re right. It doesn’t matter, the car failed the test and Lewis was disqualified.

Derek Smith

40,885 posts

220 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
In answer to the OP's question, or at least my point of view, in the interview with Toto after the race he exuded confidence with regards the Merc's conformity. He threw down a glove to RB. It might have been bravado, and you don't get as high as he's got with easy to read non-verbals, but he was enjoying himself.

It's either totally legal or else the method of cheating is such that Merc can't be penalised, and both have identical results.

It seemed to me they had judged setup spot on for the circuit. The Merc wasn't fastest in a straight line, but if LH had DRS and the car in front didn't, he could overtake at will, or at least reduce the overtaken driver to extreme defensive tactis, which were against the regs.

rdjohn

5,106 posts

167 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
jsf said:
On a more serious note. They chose the wrong option for Max on downforce level if they wanted to match Mercedes straight line speed. Max was very slow on top speed, Lewis was not even the fastest in the race. Dont swallow the Red Bull Bullst, look at the stats.

SPEED TRAP KM/H
1 55 C. SAINZ 336.7
2 7 K. RAIKKONEN 335.6
3 10 P. GASLY 335.5
4 14 F. ALONSO 333.9
5 44 L. HAMILTON 333.2
6 31 E. OCON 332.6
7 18 L. STROLL 331.3
8 63 G. RUSSELL 330.1
9 4 L. NORRIS 328.2
10 16 C. LECLERC 327.9
11 11 S. PEREZ 327.6
12 3 D. RICCIARDO 327.3
13 99 A. GIOVINAZZI 325.2
14 6 N. LATIFI 323.2
15 77 V. BOTTAS 321.7
16 22 Y. TSUNODA 319.2
17 33 M. VERSTAPPEN 318.0
18 47 M. SCHUMACHER 317.0
19 5 S. VETTEL 316.2
20 9 N. MAZEPIN 314.4

FINISH LINE KM/H
10 P. GASLY 344.6
22 Y. TSUNODA 339.4
4 L. NORRIS 337.5
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 336.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 334.9
3 D. RICCIARDO 334.5
31 E. OCON 333.1
55 C. SAINZ 332.6
14 F. ALONSO 332.6
6 N. LATIFI 331.7
11 S. PEREZ 331.3
16 C. LECLERC 331.3
44 L. HAMILTON 330.3
63 G. RUSSELL 330.2
18 L. STROLL 329.8
5 S. VETTEL 329.0
77 V. BOTTAS 328.0
47 M. SCHUMACHER 325.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 325.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 321.7

INTERMEDIATE 1 KM/H
10 P. GASLY 333.8
31 E. OCON 333.8
7 K. RAIKKONEN 332.9
44 L. HAMILTON 332.9
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 332.0
18 L. STROLL 331.3
63 G. RUSSELL 331.2
3 D. RICCIARDO 331.1
14 F. ALONSO 330.8
4 L. NORRIS 330.7
5 S. VETTEL 330.3
22 Y. TSUNODA 330.0
16 C. LECLERC 329.6
47 M. SCHUMACHER 328.4
77 V. BOTTAS 327.4
55 C. SAINZ 325.3
11 S. PEREZ 325.2
9 N. MAZEPIN 324.2
6 N. LATIFI 322.5
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 315.6

INTERMEDIATE 2 KM/H
11 S. PEREZ 262.9
16 C. LECLERC 262.6
44 L. HAMILTON 261.1
4 L. NORRIS 261.1
55 C. SAINZ 260.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 260.1
77 V. BOTTAS 259.7
5 S. VETTEL 259.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 258.9
10 P. GASLY 257.8
6 N. LATIFI 257.2
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 255.8
14 F. ALONSO 255.5
47 M. SCHUMACHER 255.0
3 D. RICCIARDO 254.9
31 E. OCON 254.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 251.9
63 G. RUSSELL 251.5
22 Y. TSUNODA 251.2
18 L. STROLL 249.3
Thanks for such a simple explanation. It also probably accounts for why Max was quicker through the twisty mid-section

mat205125

16,343 posts

185 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
85Carrera said:
Welcome to the salty max thread rolleyes
Hardly the case when both drivers in a team have such a boost in performance

Highly likely that Lewis' new engine was pushed far harder than they'd have liked to, which will become clear in the coming weeks

snuffleupagus

2 posts

1 month

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Hardly the case when both drivers in a team have such a boost in performance

Highly likely that Lewis' new engine was pushed far harder than they'd have liked to, which will become clear in the coming weeks
Already being reported that the new engine only has to last 2500km instead of 7000km and has been tuned accordingly


Quoted from Italian media(and poorly google translated)
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-mercedes-cosa...
"Hywel Thomas, chief engineer of Brixworth, has prepared an engine 5 for Lewis which must have a life of 2,500 km compared to the 7,000 that normally are required for the resolution of a "standard" power unit. Not being able to change the characteristics of the approved engine components, the Stella engineers worked to take the management strategies of this unit to extremes. In addition to pushing the turbo, they intervened on the pressure in the combustion chamber: creating a deadly combo that can be worth over 15 horsepower in search of a pole position or a successful overtaking."

Does make me wonder if all of Valtteri's engine penalties were taken to find the upper limit that they can push before giving Hamilton a new engine.

Civpilot

6,179 posts

212 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
LostM135idriver said:
Civpilot said:
Those speed stats actually show how good a performance Max put in this weekend (that corner not withstanding wink ). He was seriously hampered with his overall straight line pace all race yet still came a strong second.
Isn't that because the track isn’t a straight line?
You can be facetious if you like but my comment was related to the Max fans saying Lewis only won because his car was faster in a straight line. The numbers not only prove this to be incorrect, but they also prove that in a straight line Max was quite severely at a disadvantage to most of the field.

So his ability to still put it second shows just how good he is.

Lewis is very good, but If it was all down to the speed of the car on the straights (as all the detractors keep saying) then Max should have finished near the back of the grid.

I’m not actually slagging off either driver here

n3il123

2,329 posts

185 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
Hazmat1 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Hamilton was disqualified from Friday's qualifying because his car was in violation of a technical rule. Action was taken.
Not for what Red Bull think is happening hence still being pissy post race about the Merc rear wing.
In which case as in any form of motorsport Red Bull should get their cheque book out and protest what they think is illegal rather than making snipes in the press.

My guess is they don't know that there is anything specific wrong and won't protest it and if

a) Mercedes win the championship it will be because they are running bent
b) Red Bull win it will be despite Mercedes running a bent car


C70R

9,155 posts

76 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
jsf said:
On a more serious note. They chose the wrong option for Max on downforce level if they wanted to match Mercedes straight line speed. Max was very slow on top speed, Lewis was not even the fastest in the race. Dont swallow the Red Bull Bullst, look at the stats.

SPEED TRAP KM/H
1 55 C. SAINZ 336.7
2 7 K. RAIKKONEN 335.6
3 10 P. GASLY 335.5
4 14 F. ALONSO 333.9
5 44 L. HAMILTON 333.2
6 31 E. OCON 332.6
7 18 L. STROLL 331.3
8 63 G. RUSSELL 330.1
9 4 L. NORRIS 328.2
10 16 C. LECLERC 327.9
11 11 S. PEREZ 327.6
12 3 D. RICCIARDO 327.3
13 99 A. GIOVINAZZI 325.2
14 6 N. LATIFI 323.2
15 77 V. BOTTAS 321.7
16 22 Y. TSUNODA 319.2
17 33 M. VERSTAPPEN 318.0
18 47 M. SCHUMACHER 317.0
19 5 S. VETTEL 316.2
20 9 N. MAZEPIN 314.4

FINISH LINE KM/H
10 P. GASLY 344.6
22 Y. TSUNODA 339.4
4 L. NORRIS 337.5
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 336.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 334.9
3 D. RICCIARDO 334.5
31 E. OCON 333.1
55 C. SAINZ 332.6
14 F. ALONSO 332.6
6 N. LATIFI 331.7
11 S. PEREZ 331.3
16 C. LECLERC 331.3
44 L. HAMILTON 330.3
63 G. RUSSELL 330.2
18 L. STROLL 329.8
5 S. VETTEL 329.0
77 V. BOTTAS 328.0
47 M. SCHUMACHER 325.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 325.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 321.7

INTERMEDIATE 1 KM/H
10 P. GASLY 333.8
31 E. OCON 333.8
7 K. RAIKKONEN 332.9
44 L. HAMILTON 332.9
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 332.0
18 L. STROLL 331.3
63 G. RUSSELL 331.2
3 D. RICCIARDO 331.1
14 F. ALONSO 330.8
4 L. NORRIS 330.7
5 S. VETTEL 330.3
22 Y. TSUNODA 330.0
16 C. LECLERC 329.6
47 M. SCHUMACHER 328.4
77 V. BOTTAS 327.4
55 C. SAINZ 325.3
11 S. PEREZ 325.2
9 N. MAZEPIN 324.2
6 N. LATIFI 322.5
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 315.6

INTERMEDIATE 2 KM/H
11 S. PEREZ 262.9
16 C. LECLERC 262.6
44 L. HAMILTON 261.1
4 L. NORRIS 261.1
55 C. SAINZ 260.6
7 K. RAIKKONEN 260.1
77 V. BOTTAS 259.7
5 S. VETTEL 259.3
33 M. VERSTAPPEN 258.9
10 P. GASLY 257.8
6 N. LATIFI 257.2
99 A. GIOVINAZZI 255.8
14 F. ALONSO 255.5
47 M. SCHUMACHER 255.0
3 D. RICCIARDO 254.9
31 E. OCON 254.3
9 N. MAZEPIN 251.9
63 G. RUSSELL 251.5
22 Y. TSUNODA 251.2
18 L. STROLL 249.3
This is an amazing way to demonstrate how the average armchair fan, who doesn't do any research, can look ridiculous.

There are some wallies running around social media repeating a rumour that Merc had a 30kph advantage over the entire field. And it just gets copied, pasted and perpetuated.

gotoPzero

13,423 posts

161 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
Anyone hear that strange sound when they get to high speeds - maybe louder with the DRS open?

Its like an old WW1 whistle.

jsf

24,255 posts

208 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
oyster said:
What parts of the circuit are those speeds at? (finish line is obvious)
See the track map, it shows everything you need to know about the circuit.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_1_-_20...

LostM135idriver

414 posts

3 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
When Lewis opens his drs he whispers ‘max power’.

jsf

24,255 posts

208 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
C70R said:
This is an amazing way to demonstrate how the average armchair fan, who doesn't do any research, can look ridiculous.

There are some wallies running around social media repeating a rumour that Merc had a 30kph advantage over the entire field. And it just gets copied, pasted and perpetuated.
Pundits and drivers too. Most people are lazy and don't check the facts.

gshughes

1,190 posts

227 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
simonw67 said:
Does the data above help?
I wonder if the OP is ever going to return and answer this question? I'm guessing not!

jsf

24,255 posts

208 months

Monday 15th November
quotequote all
RobGT81 said:
Red Bull were certainly intrigued by the Merc rear wing from the start of the weekend, with good reason in qualy as it turns out! Hamiltons car in particular, seem to get a second wind down the straight relative to the other cars. I'm guessing it was a combo of the new engine benefits and energy deployment but we will never know.
It did not, it got the same benefit from DRS and a slipstream as every other car and was slower than many of them in the same conditions, as shown in the stats i posted. Every engine manufacturer posted higher top speeds than Lewis during the race.