What separates the excellent from the elite?
Discussion
doesn`t work like that.Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time. In all seriousness, it's a fallacy to assume that Hamilton has had nothing to do with Mercedes' success other than driving the car.
It would almost be akin to saying that Barrichello would be a multiple champion if Schumacher had left Ferrari.
Rosberg was (relatively) better than Barrichello, but who knows if he'd have been able to reach those heights without Hamilton's benchmark being there.
Button too, to an extent, did very well against Lewis over 3 years.
Bottas has consistently failed in that regards and been shown to let the pressure get to him or never take the win if Lewis has an off-day even when the car was up to it.
Same applies for Perez.
Some ceilings are higher than others'.
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time. Cue FIA freezing development
sparta6 said:
Lauda was a man of his word and he knew Mercedes had a 4 year headstart with their hybrid PU. Ham just had to wait a season before grabbing lots of low hanging fruit.
Cue FIA freezing development
Cue FIA freezing development
Earlier in the year, you said it was a 7 year headstart, now it's 4 years.
The engine rules were rubber-stamped in 2011 for the 2014 season. Everyone had 3 years on paper but in reality, everyone probably knew a year beforehand what the engine was going to be - Mercedes didn't have knowledge that Renault and Ferrari didn't. They just did a better job.
cgt2 said:
It's also interesting that despite the same number of WDC's no one (myself included) considers Vettel on the same level as Prost. Says something about the easier nature of winning championships in the modern era to me.
I see Vettel in the same pool as Button/Räikkönen/D Hill etc,,,very good and better than most but not elite despite his 4 WDC, which seems mad to say really so could be BS and due to a lack of understanding as you don't just win 4 WDC, but that's where I put him. hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order
Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
It’s got a lot harder with the new fastest lap point. Hamilton has lost several due to (like last weekend) someone pitting for new tyres with a lap to go solely to grab the point Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
Muzzer79 said:
sparta6 said:
Lauda was a man of his word and he knew Mercedes had a 4 year headstart with their hybrid PU. Ham just had to wait a season before grabbing lots of low hanging fruit.
Cue FIA freezing development
Cue FIA freezing development
Earlier in the year, you said it was a 7 year headstart, now it's 4 years.
Top lobbying from Merc on the engine format as it was about flogging their future road cars.
Ferrari should've used it's veto but they were having a siesta
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order
Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
It's a slightly odd one because it's become more or less likely over the years depending on what the sport is doing with pit stops at the time. I think the point for fastest lap has also made it very much harder to achieve now than it was a few years ago because there's usually a gap somewhere in the top ten big enough for someone who isn't leading to stop just to get the point for fastest lap. Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
Clark was racing in something of a golden era (albeit a very long once, since pit stops didn't become the norm until the 80s) for this because there were no pit stops and little tyre degradation, so if you had the fastest car and got pole, you were actually quite likely to get all of the above. I would say that now is probably the hardest it's ever been to achieve because the cars are all pretty close in terms of performance, numerous pit stops are the norm, and difficulty overtaking makes "the undercut" extremely powerful leading to lead drivers often pitting earlier than would naturally be the case and hence running behind other cars for at least some of the race.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 25th November 20:14
Stan the Bat said:
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order
Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
Clark was the GOAT.Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
PH User said:
Stan the Bat said:
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order
Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
Clark was the GOAT.Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time
Hamilton on 6
One of the great ''what if's'' for me is if Prost hadn't fallen out with Cesare Fiorio and called the Ferrari a truck at the end of 1991. I have no doubt he would have rebuilt the Scuderia into a winning team as he did Renault in the early 80's and to some extent McLaren in the mid-80's. What he achieved in 1990 is often overlooked. From France 1991 onwards there were moments of optimism but we never got to see what could have been.
History could have turned out very different, who knows when Senna would have gone to Williams if at all, when Schumacher would have emerged. So many variables...
History could have turned out very different, who knows when Senna would have gone to Williams if at all, when Schumacher would have emerged. So many variables...
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff