What separates the excellent from the elite?

What separates the excellent from the elite?

Author
Discussion

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
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In short, if Lewis had never been born ,there would be a lot more great/elite drivers rolleyes doesn`t work like that.

Schermerhorn

4,157 posts

161 months

Thursday 25th November
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Muzzer79 said:
Piginapoke said:
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.
Totally agree with that, Lewis has benefited from the Mercedes project rather than driven it. Rosberg could have hoovered up a lot more titles if Lewis has left and he'd stayed.
If my Aunt had balls then she'd be my uncle......

In all seriousness, it's a fallacy to assume that Hamilton has had nothing to do with Mercedes' success other than driving the car.

It would almost be akin to saying that Barrichello would be a multiple champion if Schumacher had left Ferrari.

Rosberg was (relatively) better than Barrichello, but who knows if he'd have been able to reach those heights without Hamilton's benchmark being there.
Rosberg found that extra step to take him closer to Lewis and to be in position to always take advantage if Lewis failed to deliver on the day.

Button too, to an extent, did very well against Lewis over 3 years.

Bottas has consistently failed in that regards and been shown to let the pressure get to him or never take the win if Lewis has an off-day even when the car was up to it.

Same applies for Perez.

Some ceilings are higher than others'.

sparta6

2,890 posts

72 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
sandman77 said:
I have never given it much thought but this is probably the truth. We all (mostly) accept that Lewis is the greatest of the current era and one of the all time greats but if he hadn’t left McLaren and joined Mercedes at the right time I doubt anyone would be giving him those accolades. It is also likely that Roseberg would be a multiple world champion and be touted as an elite driver on this thread.
I remember Brawn and Lauda both lobbied him intensely and eventually convinced him to make the move. He wasn't sure about it being the right move at the time.
Lauda was a man of his word and he knew Mercedes had a 4 year headstart with their hybrid PU. Ham just had to wait a season before grabbing lots of low hanging fruit.

Cue FIA freezing development hehe


hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
swisstoni said:
Comparing sportsmen from different eras.
Wasting everyone’s time on the internet since 1994.
That`s what PH is for ....

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Lauda was a man of his word and he knew Mercedes had a 4 year headstart with their hybrid PU. Ham just had to wait a season before grabbing lots of low hanging fruit.

Cue FIA freezing development hehe
hehe

Earlier in the year, you said it was a 7 year headstart, now it's 4 years.

The engine rules were rubber-stamped in 2011 for the 2014 season. Everyone had 3 years on paper but in reality, everyone probably knew a year beforehand what the engine was going to be - Mercedes didn't have knowledge that Renault and Ferrari didn't. They just did a better job.

Wills2

18,721 posts

147 months

Thursday 25th November
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cgt2 said:
It's also interesting that despite the same number of WDC's no one (myself included) considers Vettel on the same level as Prost. Says something about the easier nature of winning championships in the modern era to me.
I see Vettel in the same pool as Button/Räikkönen/D Hill etc,,,very good and better than most but not elite despite his 4 WDC, which seems mad to say really so could be BS and due to a lack of understanding as you don't just win 4 WDC, but that's where I put him.





hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
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Vettel liked the blown diffuser, when they had gone he struggled,

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6

paulw123

1,948 posts

162 months

Thursday 25th November
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hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6
It’s got a lot harder with the new fastest lap point. Hamilton has lost several due to (like last weekend) someone pitting for new tyres with a lap to go solely to grab the point

sparta6

2,890 posts

72 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
sparta6 said:
Lauda was a man of his word and he knew Mercedes had a 4 year headstart with their hybrid PU. Ham just had to wait a season before grabbing lots of low hanging fruit.

Cue FIA freezing development hehe
hehe

Earlier in the year, you said it was a 7 year headstart, now it's 4 years.
Yes typo, Merc started their PU development in 2007. They had so much cash they had 3 different versions in play and utilized their truck division for its advanced turbo chargers.

Top lobbying from Merc on the engine format as it was about flogging their future road cars.

Ferrari should've used it's veto but they were having a siesta hehe



M5-911

959 posts

17 months

Thursday 25th November
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cgt2 said:
The best example of this is Mexico 1990 when Prost started 13th and won. He always worked on race setup which is why his pole stats were not as high.
And the reason why he has more fastest lap than Senna.

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
One thing I can say about Prost, he never hurt himself in a racing car, not once, now either he wasn`t trying hard enough (no) or he was one skilful MF.
How many others can claim the same ,Jenson maybe ??

Stan the Bat

6,992 posts

184 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6
Clark was the GOAT.

kambites

62,884 posts

193 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6
It's a slightly odd one because it's become more or less likely over the years depending on what the sport is doing with pit stops at the time. I think the point for fastest lap has also made it very much harder to achieve now than it was a few years ago because there's usually a gap somewhere in the top ten big enough for someone who isn't leading to stop just to get the point for fastest lap.

Clark was racing in something of a golden era (albeit a very long once, since pit stops didn't become the norm until the 80s) for this because there were no pit stops and little tyre degradation, so if you had the fastest car and got pole, you were actually quite likely to get all of the above. I would say that now is probably the hardest it's ever been to achieve because the cars are all pretty close in terms of performance, numerous pit stops are the norm, and difficulty overtaking makes "the undercut" extremely powerful leading to lead drivers often pitting earlier than would naturally be the case and hence running behind other cars for at least some of the race.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 25th November 20:14

PH User

20,571 posts

80 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Stan the Bat said:
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6
Clark was the GOAT.
Impossible to say really. I think the best we can say is that he was one of a few.

Stan the Bat

6,992 posts

184 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
PH User said:
Stan the Bat said:
hot metal said:
I think it worth mentioning Grand Slams, Pole, Lead every Lap, Win & Fastest lap, tall order

Jim Clark achieved this 8 times, still a record after all this time

Hamilton on 6
Clark was the GOAT.
Impossible to say really. I think the best we can say is that he was one of a few.
Of course, just putting my vote in wink

Milkyway

1,349 posts

25 months

Thursday 25th November
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Lotus had the Elite...

cgt2

2,321 posts

160 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
One of the great ''what if's'' for me is if Prost hadn't fallen out with Cesare Fiorio and called the Ferrari a truck at the end of 1991. I have no doubt he would have rebuilt the Scuderia into a winning team as he did Renault in the early 80's and to some extent McLaren in the mid-80's. What he achieved in 1990 is often overlooked. From France 1991 onwards there were moments of optimism but we never got to see what could have been.

History could have turned out very different, who knows when Senna would have gone to Williams if at all, when Schumacher would have emerged. So many variables...

Stan the Bat

6,992 posts

184 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Milkyway said:
Lotus had the Elite...
laugh

Milkyway

1,349 posts

25 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Stan the Bat said:
Milkyway said:
Lotus had the Elite...
laugh
Well; Mansell, Senna, Mario Andretti, Peterson,...& a few others.


Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 25th November 21:01