What separates the excellent from the elite?

What separates the excellent from the elite?

Author
Discussion

cgt2

2,322 posts

160 months

Thursday 25th November
quotequote all
Milkyway said:
Well; Mansell, Senna, Mario Andretti, Peterson,...& a few others.


Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 25th November 21:01
Don't forget Satoru Nakajima smile

He was actually a pretty handy driver jokes aside and his son was even better.

Edited by cgt2 on Thursday 25th November 21:08

Mr Tidy

15,729 posts

99 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Milkyway said:
Lotus had the Elite...
Made of plastic - just as well they had Jim Clark too!

He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.

The real Lotus Elite.



PhilAsia

274 posts

47 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all

Both Senna and MS downplayed their drives in Donnington and Spain. Senna, due to electronics and MS due to an exhaust that lowered power that made it easier in putting that power down in the wet. Plus, being the only manufacturers taking a gamble on a full wet setup - good for 4-8 secs per lap over an inter setup. Again, only what I have read. Others may have seen other recounting of events.

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
Milkyway said:
Lotus had the Elite...
Made of plastic - just as well they had Jim Clark too!

He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.

The real Lotus Elite.

bow

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.

However, I don’t believe it works the other way around- being competitive in a sports car, GT etc doesn’t automatically mean the driver will be competitive in F1.

In Jim Clark’s era, drivers used to race all sorts for the love of it so we’d get to see evidence that they can win in anything but I don’t necessarily agree that Clark’s ability to win in a Mini or a Lotus Cortina elevates him compared to others.

For me, from what I’ve heard, what made Clark exceptional was the incredible efficiency and fluency of his inputs to the car, which made him unfathomably quick but also outrageously consistent and highly sympathetic to the machinery.

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
PhilAsia said:
Both Senna and MS downplayed their drives in Donnington and Spain. Senna, due to electronics and MS due to an exhaust that lowered power that made it easier in putting that power down in the wet. Plus, being the only manufacturers taking a gamble on a full wet setup - good for 4-8 secs per lap over an inter setup. Again, only what I have read. Others may have seen other recounting of events.
Senna's drive at Donington was hugely impressive but, similar to some of his other achievements, it has been made evangelical because he died the following year.

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Mr Tidy said:
He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.


Sometimes... it’s just not your day;
Our Nige... stung a little.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aVvebZwmLKU

Or Tarquini
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QfBbCr0YQhk


Edited by Milkyway on Friday 26th November 10:21

StevieBee

Original Poster:

10,363 posts

227 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Mr Tidy said:
He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.
I'd say that's true to a point but limited only to other high power/speed formulae that uses aero and tyres in a similar manner - Indy, LMP1, etc. Outside of this it's far from a given.

Back in the day when Rallycross was super-popular a few F1 drivers gave it a go and got completely trounced by the regular drivers. As above, Touring Cars has not been kind on F1 drivers (add Herbert to that list!).

That said, I've often thought it would be an interesting exercise to see what would happen if you took the top 10 F1 drivers and stuck them in some 750MC club meet at Snetterton.

cgt2

2,322 posts

160 months

Friday 26th November
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hot metal said:
Well, you win any way you can within the rules, but he would often make sure ,or try to, he was in a position of strength within the team, not sure how that worked with Senna, well we saw how that worked with Senna but doing your talking on the track is more sporting. I suppose this goes on a lot more than is obvious.
I have a good friend who was on the race team at McLaren. He said the entire team from Ron down loved Prost, reason was very simple. He spent hours and hours with the mechanics, designers and at the factory on non race weekends to optimise everything. He did so much homework as a means of virtually guaranteeing success. Not sure political would be the right description. Yes he had a relationship with Balestre but the Senna documentary made far more of that than the reality.

Prost was the one who actually encouraged Ron Dennis to sign Senna.

This method of spending every moment off track working on performance was very uncommon in the mid 80's and when I asked what Lauda did I was told he generally turned up, drove then went home.

He told me when Senna came along he was the same as Prost, maybe even more as he had zero interest or focus on anything other than maximising success. I was told Prost had some degree of personal life but Senna appeared to have zero, even wanting to be at the factory on Christmas Day.

The interesting thing is that for all the acrimony both drivers were extremely liked and popular within the team and many were genuinely sad that Prost was moving on after '89.

Of course now there are limits on testing but this work ethic was a common theme with multiple champions. Schumacher used to lap Fiorano until it got dark every night and slept in Enzo's old house at the track so he could be ready to start early every morning.

For team members they saw their superstar driver working every moment of the day with them to deliver results which with the hours they did and still do today would be massively encouraging as an incentive to deliver.

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.

However, I don’t believe it works the other way around- being competitive in a sports car, GT etc doesn’t automatically mean the driver will be competitive in F1.

In Jim Clark’s era, drivers used to race all sorts for the love of it so we’d get to see evidence that they can win in anything but I don’t necessarily agree that Clark’s ability to win in a Mini or a Lotus Cortina elevates him compared to others.

For me, from what I’ve heard, what made Clark exceptional was the incredible efficiency and fluency of his inputs to the car, which made him unfathomably quick but also outrageously consistent and highly sympathetic to the machinery.
This is the real definition of elite ...

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Talking of being competitive in other series, 9 times Le Mans winner Tom Kristensen, is he just good at stroking a car over distance ?? His feats a the Revival in dodgy old saloon cars says otherwise ,outstanding, scratchchin mind you, who was he up against.

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
M. Schumacher & Webber came from WEC... done quite well in F1.
Yet another bad day at the office... for Webber.
MW quoting; “ I was still braking... the lights were on”.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9kvDkNXLrn4


Edited by Milkyway on Friday 26th November 16:54

Muzzer79

5,643 posts

159 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.

Not so sure about this. Several drivers have struggled in tin-tops versus open-wheel formula.

Also, some can't handle the transition from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, where applicable.

Perhaps the best example is those who have left F1 and gone to DTM. Granted, they may be in the twilight of their career but, given their success, they should have bossed it. Hakkinen, Coulthard, Frentzen to name but three.

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
HustleRussell said:
Perhaps the best example is those who have left F1 and gone to DTM. Granted, they may be in the twilight of their career but, given their success, they should have bossed it. Hakkinen, Coulthard, Frentzen to name but three.
Look out for the possibility of Jordan King in the BTCC next year.
Granted... only done few FP1 sessions for Williams, but could be an interesting benchmark.
Could be the next Tarquini


Edited by Milkyway on Friday 26th November 18:34

Stan the Bat

6,993 posts

184 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
hot metal said:
HustleRussell said:
I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.

However, I don’t believe it works the other way around- being competitive in a sports car, GT etc doesn’t automatically mean the driver will be competitive in F1.

In Jim Clark’s era, drivers used to race all sorts for the love of it so we’d get to see evidence that they can win in anything but I don’t necessarily agree that Clark’s ability to win in a Mini or a Lotus Cortina elevates him compared to others.

For me, from what I’ve heard, what made Clark exceptional was the incredible efficiency and fluency of his inputs to the car, which made him unfathomably quick but also outrageously consistent and highly sympathetic to the machinery.
This is the real definition of elite ...
Clark did pretty well in rallying when he had a go at it.

hot metal

1,577 posts

165 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Not so sure about this. Several drivers have struggled in tin-tops versus open-wheel formula.

Also, some can't handle the transition from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, where applicable.

Perhaps the best example is those who have left F1 and gone to DTM. Granted, they may be in the twilight of their career but, given their success, they should have bossed it. Hakkinen, Coulthard, Frentzen to name but three.
All 3 would have been targets for the rest of the grid, no greater incentive than to beat these drivers.

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
hot metal said:
Muzzer79 said:
Not so sure about this. Several drivers have struggled in tin-tops versus open-wheel formula.

Also, some can't handle the transition from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, where applicable.

Perhaps the best example is those who have left F1 and gone to DTM. Granted, they may be in the twilight of their career but, given their success, they should have bossed it. Hakkinen, Coulthard, Frentzen to name but three.
All 3 would have been targets for the rest of the grid, no greater incentive than to beat these drivers.
Did Albon actually race in the DTM... after all the hype. scratchchin

HustleRussell

20,512 posts

132 months

Friday 26th November
quotequote all
Milkyway said:
Did Albon actually race in the DTM... after all the hype. scratchchin
Pretty sure I heard he got a noteworthy result not too long ago… win?

cgt2

2,322 posts

160 months

Saturday 27th November
quotequote all
Fantastic podcast. Very honest about his abilities and rivalries particularly with LH and MS which links neatly to the context of this conversation

https://youtu.be/q8cLM5T3Mkc

Milkyway

1,352 posts

25 months

Saturday 27th November
quotequote all
cgt2 said:
Fantastic podcast. Very honest about his abilities and rivalries particularly with LH and MS which links neatly to the context of this conversation

https://youtu.be/q8cLM5T3Mkc
As Mark Webber says;
There is a lot of respect between the F1 & WEC drivers.
A lot of it comes down to the mental attitude... but obviously, in WEC, you have other drivers in your car to take into account.