Mercedes problem!

Mercedes problem!

Author
Discussion

Chrisgr31

12,613 posts

232 months

Wednesday 20th April
quotequote all
I doubt Lewis is planning a move. All the stories have one source I think which is Mika Hakkinen. What would he know?

However I can see Red Bull and Ferrari not rejecting the stories, mainly on the hope it unsettled Lewis and Mercedes

entropy

4,604 posts

180 months

Wednesday 20th April
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Red bull have an issue with their fuel system. The thought is they are doing something clever with it to give them added performance at given times, maybe storing extra fuel somewhere past the meter, thats got airlocked, or failed?
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Ferrari's secret deal with the FIA isn't there an extra fuel meter to prevent this sort of thing happening?

//j17

3,867 posts

200 months

Wednesday 20th April
quotequote all
entropy said:
Byker28i said:
Red bull have an issue with their fuel system. The thought is they are doing something clever with it to give them added performance at given times, maybe storing extra fuel somewhere past the meter, thats got airlocked, or failed?
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Ferrari's secret deal with the FIA isn't there an extra fuel meter to prevent this sort of thing happening?
This would be Red Bull's 'work-around' for the 'fix' the FIA put in place when the caught Ferrari using another 'work around' to the fuel flow rules.

Byker28i

41,772 posts

194 months

Thursday 21st April
quotequote all
//j17 said:
entropy said:
Byker28i said:
Red bull have an issue with their fuel system. The thought is they are doing something clever with it to give them added performance at given times, maybe storing extra fuel somewhere past the meter, thats got airlocked, or failed?
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Ferrari's secret deal with the FIA isn't there an extra fuel meter to prevent this sort of thing happening?
This would be Red Bull's 'work-around' for the 'fix' the FIA put in place when the caught Ferrari using another 'work around' to the fuel flow rules.
The one where Ferrari suddenly found performance, after tams were banned from oil burning.
Didn't the Fuel Flow Meter have problems due to the fuel that Red Bull were using when it was introduced?

There are also limits as to how much now can be stored in the fuel lines past the FFM. There was talk of routing power lines from the hybryd system so to disrupt the signal from the FFM, meaning it read less. It's assumed this is what Ferrari were doing but as the FIA kept that secret...

So we get a second FFM, which is encrypted, but we all know those F1 engineers are very clever people. Remember it was Red Bull asking the questions about Ferrari and providing details.

It's all speculation at the moment, but it seems Red Bull are doing something different with the fuel system that other teams aren't.

Edited by Byker28i on Thursday 21st April 08:03

//j17

3,867 posts

200 months

Thursday 21st April
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
It's all speculation at the moment, but it seems Red Bull are doing something different with the fuel system that other teams aren't.
Maybe. Or maybe in the same way I'd bet the only difference between Ferrari and the other teams was that rather than being the only ones 'innovating' they were just the ones who got caught, in this case it's just Red Bull are having issues getting their 'innovation' working that other teams aren't.

Leithen

8,441 posts

244 months

Thursday 21st April
quotequote all
I suspect that Red Bull's issues are more related to the packaging and design of this years car. Newey has a bit of a record finding speed at the expense of reliability, that then requires work to fix.

Fundoreen

2,994 posts

60 months

Tuesday 3rd May
quotequote all
Next few races should tell. At some stage Mercedes could adopt the fat sides style of the Ferrari. Must be easy enough as its just empty space on pretty much all the cars.

jimPH

3,776 posts

57 months

Tuesday 3rd May
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
//j17 said:
entropy said:
Byker28i said:
Red bull have an issue with their fuel system. The thought is they are doing something clever with it to give them added performance at given times, maybe storing extra fuel somewhere past the meter, thats got airlocked, or failed?
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Ferrari's secret deal with the FIA isn't there an extra fuel meter to prevent this sort of thing happening?
This would be Red Bull's 'work-around' for the 'fix' the FIA put in place when the caught Ferrari using another 'work around' to the fuel flow rules.
The one where Ferrari suddenly found performance, after tams were banned from oil burning.
Didn't the Fuel Flow Meter have problems due to the fuel that Red Bull were using when it was introduced?

There are also limits as to how much now can be stored in the fuel lines past the FFM. There was talk of routing power lines from the hybryd system so to disrupt the signal from the FFM, meaning it read less. It's assumed this is what Ferrari were doing but as the FIA kept that secret...

So we get a second FFM, which is encrypted, but we all know those F1 engineers are very clever people. Remember it was Red Bull asking the questions about Ferrari and providing details.

It's all speculation at the moment, but it seems Red Bull are doing something different with the fuel system that other teams aren't.

Edited by Byker28i on Thursday 21st April 08:03
Can't see it. The fuel system has been done to death since Ferrari got caught, if you're talking about it on PH, it's hardly a secret and something the scrutineers have overlooked.

PhilAsia

969 posts

52 months

Tuesday 3rd May
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Byker28i said:
//j17 said:
entropy said:
Byker28i said:
Red bull have an issue with their fuel system. The thought is they are doing something clever with it to give them added performance at given times, maybe storing extra fuel somewhere past the meter, thats got airlocked, or failed?
Correct me if I'm wrong but after Ferrari's secret deal with the FIA isn't there an extra fuel meter to prevent this sort of thing happening?
This would be Red Bull's 'work-around' for the 'fix' the FIA put in place when the caught Ferrari using another 'work around' to the fuel flow rules.
The one where Ferrari suddenly found performance, after tams were banned from oil burning.
Didn't the Fuel Flow Meter have problems due to the fuel that Red Bull were using when it was introduced?

There are also limits as to how much now can be stored in the fuel lines past the FFM. There was talk of routing power lines from the hybryd system so to disrupt the signal from the FFM, meaning it read less. It's assumed this is what Ferrari were doing but as the FIA kept that secret...

So we get a second FFM, which is encrypted, but we all know those F1 engineers are very clever people. Remember it was Red Bull asking the questions about Ferrari and providing details.

It's all speculation at the moment, but it seems Red Bull are doing something different with the fuel system that other teams aren't.

Edited by Byker28i on Thursday 21st April 08:03
Can't see it. The fuel system has been done to death since Ferrari got caught, if you're talking about it on PH, it's hardly a secret and something the scrutineers have overlooked.
Passwords are hardly a secret and they are scrutineered constantly without finding out anything...most of the time

Piginapoke

3,175 posts

162 months

Wednesday 4th May
quotequote all
I think the Ferrari system stored fuel after the fuel flow meter when off throttle, to increase on throttle flow. It's now prevented by a meter at the engine.

RB have said it the vibrations caused the last problem, now fixed (which the Imola result backs up). I'm not seeing any major power advantage for the RBs, if anything the Ferrari looks a bit stronger.

rdjohn

5,260 posts

172 months

Saturday 7th May
quotequote all
Mercedes problems, have they been fixed? I cant find any reports on that issue

jimPH

3,776 posts

57 months

Saturday 7th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Mercedes problems, have they been fixed? I cant find any reports on that issue
Low downforce setup is reducing the effect of porpoising apparently.

Sandpit Steve

5,811 posts

51 months

Saturday 7th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Mercedes problems, have they been fixed? I cant find any reports on that issue
They have bought new front and rear wings to Miami, first major upgrades of the season.

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/152264191837...
“Clever twist on the #F1 front wing rules, as Merc modify the entire outer section of front wing.
The way the elements transitioninto the endplate is unique, creating a smaller endplate surface. Creating less outwash IMO”

rdjohn

5,260 posts

172 months

Saturday 7th May
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Low downforce setup is reducing the effect of porpoising apparently.
Thanks, I could see that it looked a lot better down the straight, just could not understand why.

Dunit

Original Poster:

626 posts

182 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
Surely it's time for them to give up on this current setup? Could they not bring the original spec as well for direct comparison for Lewis to use in Spain as he is lower placed?
Or is there a ruling to say both cars have to be the same?

HustleRussell

21,462 posts

137 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
Dunit said:
Surely it's time for them to give up on this current setup? Could they not bring the original spec as well for direct comparison for Lewis to use in Spain as he is lower placed?
Or is there a ruling to say both cars have to be the same?
If the launch spec worked better or had more potential than their current spec, I'm sure we would've seen it or parts of it since pre-season testing.

Mercedes presumably see something in this design direction, as did Mclaren and Williams. I bet it'll be a front runner by the end of the season, and I bet it'll pay dividends from 2023-2025.

tertius

6,447 posts

207 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
Are they even in a position to do that? Did the car that ran at the first “test” actually get crash tested and scrutineered and/or any other prerequisite steps that are needed before it can run in an official event?

Genuine question - I don’t what is actually required but I seem to recall that first test had some special “not-really-a-test” status.

honda_exige

4,202 posts

183 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
tertius said:
Are they even in a position to do that? Did the car that ran at the first “test” actually get crash tested and scrutineered and/or any other prerequisite steps that are needed before it can run in an official event?

Genuine question - I don’t what is actually required but I seem to recall that first test had some special “not-really-a-test” status.
It's the same car just with different body work so all the crash test carbon structures are in the same place so theoretically shouldn't have an issue being entered.

HustleRussell

21,462 posts

137 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
honda_exige said:
tertius said:
Are they even in a position to do that? Did the car that ran at the first “test” actually get crash tested and scrutineered and/or any other prerequisite steps that are needed before it can run in an official event?

Genuine question - I don’t what is actually required but I seem to recall that first test had some special “not-really-a-test” status.
It's the same car just with different body work so all the crash test carbon structures are in the same place so theoretically shouldn't have an issue being entered.
The necessary parts would've been crash tested but there's nothing to say that the pre-season shakedown car is compliant with the technical regs as it never ran in a scrutineered session. It probably largely is legal but it didn't 'have to' be so maybe elements of it aren't.

I don't think it was ever supposed to see a competitive session- it was a generic bodywork so that they could get some of the early mule work done whilst keeping more extreme launch design under wraps for an extra week or two until the 'official' test. There may have been very little work done on the shakedown spec bodywork from a performance standpoint.

In any case, they now have three months of in-season development and learning, plus full view of everybody else's car. There is not a chance that they can achieve better performance than they currently have by going back to January spec. If that's the case, what have they been doing for three months?

It's worth remembering that everybody else is not standing still. Mercedes have improved their car but so far their performance relative to others has remained about the same (on average, 3rd best car overall- never 2nd, sometimes 4th...)

Leithen

8,441 posts

244 months

Tuesday 10th May
quotequote all
The bodywork appears to be secondary to the primary issue which is the floor.