Why is the Merc a lemon this year?
Discussion
Wills2 said:
All the big teams that have dominated at various times over the last 40 years Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren have stopped winning WDC for one reason or another, it's expected and inevitable you just don't go on winning forever.
Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
Quite. Ferrari have had a good level of influence over the new regs too and still failed to win. They've cheated and still failed to win. Now they have potentially the car to beat, and still find ways to fail!Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
They don't get any flak for it simply because it's been so long now that I think expectations are quite low...
It wouldn't surprise me if Merc actually beat them in constructors this year.
Zarco said:
Not sure why Merc have fallen from grace, but it's no coincidence Red Bull are on top when they have Adrian Newey looking after their aero.
So what’s he been doing for the last 8 years then? Of Course he’s an incredible designer but seriously can we all calm down a little bit now that he’s finally done a decent car again
Wills2 said:
All the big teams that have dominated at various times over the last 40 years Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren have stopped winning WDC for one reason or another, it's expected and inevitable you just don't go on winning forever.
Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.Mercedes current "dog" of a car has them in a comfortable 3rd in the championship with more points than McLaren/Alpine and Alfa put together so what does that say about their cars?
Ferrari haven't won a championship for 15 years after winning 6 out of 8 2000-2007, Redbull went 7 years without a win having won 4 on the bounce, McLaren in the 80s winning 5 championships and last won 14 years ago.
There is nothing about Mercedes to stop the same happening to them.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
carl_w said:
Nova Gyna said:
At 2:14, James Allison says you are only allowed to move at 30mm/s in the wind tunnel.
I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
Nova Gyna said:
I didn't think anyone would believe it if I just said 30 mm/s, which is why I posted the video.
I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
The wind tunnel is allowed to be a scale speed of 50m/s.I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
“No RWTT [Restricted WT Testing] may be carried out using a scale model and RATG which is greater than 60% of full size neither may it be carried out at a wind tunnel air speed exceeding 50m/s measured relative to the scale model and RATG. Furthermore, during restricted wind tunnel testing the magnitude of the rate of change of the wind tunnel air speed measured relative to the scale model and RATG must be less than 4.5m/s2.”
(Rule 3b in Appendix 7 to the Sporting Regulations).
With a 60% scaled car, the maximum allowed size, that would be 30m/s - so a mis-speak from the engineer.
Nova Gyna said:
I didn't think anyone would believe it if I just said 30 mm/s, which is why I posted the video.
I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
It's got to be 30m/s surely? That would be 67mphI had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
Edit: this is the bit he means but I'm struggling to understand it.
FIA Sporting Regs said:
Changes of attitude of the model and RATG may not occur at a rate that requires changes of ride height at the front or rear axle centreline greater than the scale equivalent of 0.033 m/s on the full size F1 car and/or rotation about the yaw or roll axes at a rate greater than 1.0 deg./s.
Edited by carl_w on Wednesday 22 June 13:27
Edited by carl_w on Wednesday 22 June 13:28
He very clearly says millimeters but I can only guess that he meant to say either 30mm/ms or 30m/s.
I don't know anything about how it works but I seem to remember they're allowed to have their wind tunnel models up to 60 percent scale and If my random conjecture is anywhere near then 30m/s is about 180kph equivalent
I don't know anything about how it works but I seem to remember they're allowed to have their wind tunnel models up to 60 percent scale and If my random conjecture is anywhere near then 30m/s is about 180kph equivalent
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
sparta6 said:
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
That team would just fit a new engine and gearbox every race if the driver wasn't penalised.
Sandpit Steve said:
Nova Gyna said:
I didn't think anyone would believe it if I just said 30 mm/s, which is why I posted the video.
I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
The wind tunnel is allowed to be a scale speed of 50m/s.I had to watch it three times just to be sure that's what he said. Like you, I thought it was awfully slow as well.
Possibly he misspoke. I actually don't know, but he seems like the type of guy that is careful with numbers.
“No RWTT [Restricted WT Testing] may be carried out using a scale model and RATG which is greater than 60% of full size neither may it be carried out at a wind tunnel air speed exceeding 50m/s measured relative to the scale model and RATG. Furthermore, during restricted wind tunnel testing the magnitude of the rate of change of the wind tunnel air speed measured relative to the scale model and RATG must be less than 4.5m/s2.”
(Rule 3b in Appendix 7 to the Sporting Regulations).
With a 60% scaled car, the maximum allowed size, that would be 30m/s - so a mis-speak from the engineer.
It’s the same for all the teams of course, maybe some understood these correlation factors better than others ? Maybe they got lucky that the concepts were less sensitive to these correlation issues ?
I actually think the suspension may be as big a factor as the aero, after all, GE cars need a stable platform. I was actually a bit surprised that they didn’t do something in the damping for it to go very rigid at the frequencies which the porpoising was occurring. But I assume that would have had other significant negative impacts on mechanical grip etc.
rscott said:
sparta6 said:
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
That team would just fit a new engine and gearbox every race if the driver wasn't penalised.
sparta6 said:
rscott said:
sparta6 said:
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
That team would just fit a new engine and gearbox every race if the driver wasn't penalised.
sparta6 said:
rscott said:
sparta6 said:
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
That team would just fit a new engine and gearbox every race if the driver wasn't penalised.
oyster said:
sparta6 said:
rscott said:
sparta6 said:
Nova Gyna said:
sparta6 said:
Yes 3rd fastest is a solid job by Merc given the regs change.
On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
If that’s the case, It's a shame for Ferrari that all of the races this year are on tarmac. On paper the Ferrari is faster than the RB.
still think the team should be penalised for its technical failures, rather than penalising the driver.
Deducting WCC points for component replacements would be equitable
That team would just fit a new engine and gearbox every race if the driver wasn't penalised.
How does the driver contribute to component failure ?
In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
sparta6 said:
The driver contributes to the car getting points.
How does the driver contribute to component failure ?
In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
There's more to a drivers contribution to the risk of mechanical defects than just rev limitsHow does the driver contribute to component failure ?
In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
Even with a software packed car, the driver has a huge part to play in risks to reliability, in what could be rolled up to "mechanical sympathy"
Remember that these cars do not have traction control, and the way that a driver will attack a corner and kerbs, with the gearbox and clutch and engine loaded up, and potentially spinning tyres and then snatching for grip will have a huge part to play in the reliability that a team will see.
Any car of any kind can be broken by a clumsy and ham fisted driver
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff