Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Poll: Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Total Members Polled: 164

Hamilton: 12%
Russell: 3%
Verstappen: 63%
Perez: 0%
Leclerc: 16%
Sainz: 7%
Author
Discussion

RB Will

8,283 posts

221 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
C70R said:
ajprice said:
hehe but yes

The points lost by the Ferrari team through retirements and strategy fk ups, and Leclerc a few times, would put them a decent gap ahead of Verstappen.
Can you show your maths on this one please, because I think that's actually completely wrong.
WTF1 did a video on it, check Youtube. They worked out Ferrari have lost 37 points due to bad strategy, 80 from car failures and 54 from driver error.

They have CLC 125 points down on where he could have been.

Of course if they had all these points they would have been reducing Max's score too so CLC should be ahead.

That video is a month old too so probably more to add in to it.

carlo996

87 posts

2 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
RB Will said:
C70R said:
ajprice said:
hehe but yes

The points lost by the Ferrari team through retirements and strategy fk ups, and Leclerc a few times, would put them a decent gap ahead of Verstappen.
Can you show your maths on this one please, because I think that's actually completely wrong.
WTF1 did a video on it, check Youtube. They worked out Ferrari have lost 37 points due to bad strategy, 80 from car failures and 54 from driver error.

They have CLC 125 points down on where he could have been.

Of course if they had all these points they would have been reducing Max's score too so CLC should be ahead.

That video is a month old too so probably more to add in to it.
Is there any point in ‘whatiferry’?

C70R

12,363 posts

85 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
carlo996 said:
Is there any point in ‘whatiferry’?
If nothing else, it helps 'support' niche opinions on the internet.

dunc_sx

1,486 posts

178 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
RB Will said:
WTF1 did a video on it, check Youtube. They worked out Ferrari have lost 37 points due to bad strategy, 80 from car failures and 54 from driver error.

They have CLC 125 points down on where he could have been.

Of course if they had all these points they would have been reducing Max's score too so CLC should be ahead.

That video is a month old too so probably more to add in to it.
You'd have to do the whatiferry for Max though as well surely? I suspect that would put him back in front again.

Actually taking all the team or technical DNF's out for everyone on the grid would give a good idea of driver performance.

You could make a new driver and team WC for every year ever doing this probably.

Dunc.


Edited by dunc_sx on Tuesday 13th September 12:32

angrymoby

1,955 posts

159 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
dunc_sx said:
RB Will said:
WTF1 did a video on it, check Youtube. They worked out Ferrari have lost 37 points due to bad strategy, 80 from car failures and 54 from driver error.

They have CLC 125 points down on where he could have been.

Of course if they had all these points they would have been reducing Max's score too so CLC should be ahead.

That video is a month old too so probably more to add in to it.
You'd have to do the whatiferry for Max though as well surely? I suspect that would put him back in front again.

Actually taking all the team or technical DNF's out for everyone on the grid would give a good idea of driver performance.

You could make a new driver and team WC for every year ever doing this probably.

Dunc.
Max would be 40-50 points clear still if we aren't myopic & apply the same/similar level of 'whattifery'

RB Will

8,283 posts

221 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Not done the maths but it must be pretty close, if you give CLC the points he has missed, take off the ones Max would have lost if CLC had finished where he should have of ahead of Max, then added back on the 35ish points max has dropped it has to be in the ballpark

Mark-C

3,768 posts

186 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
If we take this to it's logical (or illogical) conclusion can't someone just work out the points that everyone would have based on their grid position and announce the pretend championship position based on that?

That'll give us something else to argue about whilst we wait for Singapore cool

Aids0G

371 posts

130 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?

Muzzer79

6,871 posts

168 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Aids0G said:
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?
Why would Red Bull turn up at Lando's door, even hypothetically?

If this is a question as to whether Lando is at Max's level, nobody knows. Lando is really good, but until he gets a good car, we don't know how good.

Aids0G

371 posts

130 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Aids0G said:
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?
Why would Red Bull turn up at Lando's door, even hypothetically?

If this is a question as to whether Lando is at Max's level, nobody knows. Lando is really good, but until he gets a good car, we don't know how good.
I assume at some point they would want to replace Perez and of the other drivers on the grid Lando seems a good fit for Redbull and looks like one of if not the fastest drivers not in a top team.

More a question of how Red Bull would handle having two top drivers in the team.

kambites

65,076 posts

202 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
Max would be 40-50 points clear still if we aren't myopic & apply the same/similar level of 'whattifery'
That sounds about right. It would require some impressive mental gymnastics to manage to come to a conclusion that Leclerc should be ahead. The WCC might be closer though because I think Sainz has been significantly out-performing Perez.

C70R

12,363 posts

85 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Aids0G said:
Muzzer79 said:
Aids0G said:
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?
Why would Red Bull turn up at Lando's door, even hypothetically?

If this is a question as to whether Lando is at Max's level, nobody knows. Lando is really good, but until he gets a good car, we don't know how good.
I assume at some point they would want to replace Perez and of the other drivers on the grid Lando seems a good fit for Redbull and looks like one of if not the fastest drivers not in a top team.

More a question of how Red Bull would handle having two top drivers in the team.
They are going to win the WDC and WCC fairly comfortably this season. No idea why they'd even entertain the idea of changing Perez now. He might not be battling for the title, but he's doing everything the team asks of him at the moment.

Muzzer79

6,871 posts

168 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Aids0G said:
Muzzer79 said:
Aids0G said:
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?
Why would Red Bull turn up at Lando's door, even hypothetically?

If this is a question as to whether Lando is at Max's level, nobody knows. Lando is really good, but until he gets a good car, we don't know how good.
I assume at some point they would want to replace Perez and of the other drivers on the grid Lando seems a good fit for Redbull and looks like one of if not the fastest drivers not in a top team.

More a question of how Red Bull would handle having two top drivers in the team.
Red Bull will replace Perez with another Perez-like driver. They don't want or need Lando or a Charles LeClerc or a George Russell whilst they have Verstappen.

If they happen to stumble upon one (Herta, for example, very maybe) then they'll manage it, but they'll certainly not be buying one in.

We fans often make the mistake of assuming that teams want two of the fastest drivers when, in reality, they want one of the fastest drivers and then a fast driver alongside.
This has proven to be the best method to win - see Hamilton/Bottas, Schumacher/Barrichello, Hakkinen/Coulthard, Vettel/Webber and so on.

Having two top drivers has worked in the past and Red Bull will want cover in case Max jumps ship like Vettel did, but they'll want one of their own probably.

C70R

12,363 posts

85 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Having two top drivers has worked in the past and Red Bull will want cover in case Max jumps ship like Vettel did, but they'll want one of their own probably.
Very rarely has having two evenly-matched drivers resulted in a WDC for the team. Lewis/Nico and Prost/Senna are massive outliers.

Chebble

1,855 posts

133 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Red Bull will replace Perez with another Perez-like driver. They don't want or need Lando or a Charles LeClerc or a George Russell whilst they have Verstappen.

If they happen to stumble upon one (Herta, for example, very maybe) then they'll manage it, but they'll certainly not be buying one in.

We fans often make the mistake of assuming that teams want two of the fastest drivers when, in reality, they want one of the fastest drivers and then a fast driver alongside.
This has proven to be the best method to win - see Hamilton/Bottas, Schumacher/Barrichello, Hakkinen/Coulthard, Vettel/Webber and so on.

Having two top drivers has worked in the past and Red Bull will want cover in case Max jumps ship like Vettel did, but they'll want one of their own probably.
This is bang on the money, IMO.

Muzzer79

6,871 posts

168 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
C70R said:
Muzzer79 said:
Having two top drivers has worked in the past and Red Bull will want cover in case Max jumps ship like Vettel did, but they'll want one of their own probably.
Very rarely has having two evenly-matched drivers resulted in a WDC for the team. Lewis/Nico and Prost/Senna are massive outliers.
Lauda/Prost

Mansell/Piquet

Hill/Villeneuve (arguably)

Aswell as the two you mentioned.

It's not unheard of, with the right car.

carlo996

87 posts

2 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Chebble said:
This is bang on the money, IMO.
Yes. You need one to win the WDC and a second for the events your #1 has an issue and to secure manufactures title. Two #1 drivers is asking for drama.

HustleRussell

22,131 posts

141 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
C70R said:
Very rarely has having two evenly-matched drivers resulted in a WDC for the team.
It's not unheard of, with the right car.
I feel like back in the day racing drivers were, to quote Frank Williams, 'lightbulbs'... nowadays it seems like the cars and the teams are so complex to operate that teams don't want to just swap drivers willy nilly. There has been a spate of very long contracts dished out to Leclerc and Verstappen for example. Being a Formula 1 driver seems much more like a career job now.

Having two number 1 drivers might not result in instant fireworks but IMO those drivers are on a collision course from the start... they might be ok for one year but it is only a matter of time before they are on top of one another. Teams seem to expect their driver line-ups to offer stability for multiple years now.

Jasandjules

67,916 posts

210 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Aids0G said:
With Perez so far off Max currently, hypothetically if Red Bull turned up at Lando's door with a big cheque to join them for 2024 is the general consensus that we would have a Hamilton-Rosberg team battle for next year? Or is Lando not quite there yet?
No. Because Red Bull don't want anyone could challenge or beat Max. See Daniel for details... Or Perez when he was in with a chance of beating Max and being told not to etc.

Red Bull want a journeyman in the second seat only.

C70R

12,363 posts

85 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
C70R said:
Muzzer79 said:
Having two top drivers has worked in the past and Red Bull will want cover in case Max jumps ship like Vettel did, but they'll want one of their own probably.
Very rarely has having two evenly-matched drivers resulted in a WDC for the team. Lewis/Nico and Prost/Senna are massive outliers.
Lauda/Prost

Mansell/Piquet

Hill/Villeneuve (arguably)

Aswell as the two you mentioned.

It's not unheard of, with the right car.
It's obviously not unheard of... laugh

But if we can only name a handful (with one debatable) in the modern history of F1, then that makes it an outlier.