Porsche Pull Out Of red Bull Collaboration
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
But with the team budget cap and the new PU budget cap, both of which combined are less than RBR used to spend on a season, they should theoretically be able to do it as long as they can hire the right people to run the technical side. In Ben Hodgkinson (ex head of mechanical at Merc-AMG-HPP) they will hope they have the Newey of engines to lead the PU team.
Budget cap has only just brought it and now awaiting for financial doping to occur. Some think the budget will be ineffective and only keeps the status quo - just witness how the cap was quickly agreed c.f. top teams wrangling over extra prize money for more sprint races.
Dieter Mateschitz being most keen on Porsche tells you everything what he thinks of the of RBPT project. He'll want somebody else to take over and be looking for a profit.
My first thought when I saw this post, as suggested by someone else, was Williams. They are still in the early stages of resurrection and don’t have the restraints of long established management. They’d probably be quite flexible on the partnership details and Porsche would bring quite a lot to that table. In the long term it could be very lucrative and bring stability which is basically what a business needs.
entropy said:
That's the problem. It's a massive undertaking. No independent team in the modern era has gone on to make/develop their own engine. Not even Ron Dennis who preferred to have free engines for McLaren.
Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
It is a massive undertaking, and as CH says in the various Sky interviews, over 300 people work for RBPT already, they've recruited an awful lot of talent from F1 teams, a state of the art factory has been built, they have already made the first engine and it has been fired up. Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
No fizzy drinks company had gone on to make a competitive championship winning F1 team before Red Bull, I think it would be naïve to think firstly that CH is somehow doing this out of his own pocket or without Mateschitz's backing, and secondly that RB won't take the challenge on and be successful at it, it's sort of what they do.
You must have read in the press how much the Oracle sponsorship deal was worth? That's just one sponsor... F1 is in excellent health commercially, RedBull aren't going to be looking down the back of the sofa to keep the Powertrains project going...
entropy said:
Dieter Mateschitz being most keen on Porsche tells you everything what he thinks of the of RBPT project. He'll want somebody else to take over and be looking for a profit.
It's Dietrich by the way 
It seems odd to invest so much in to RBPT if the intention is what... To flog it off, rent it out? Why bother building the premises on the campus? Get Porsche or whoever to throw money in to build things, buy dynos etc. If the motivation is profit, why hasn't the team been flogged already or why was RedBull so against Porsche having a share of it to the extent it seems the whole deal is now off?
I think you're at risk of having made your mind up on what you think is going on, and are interpreting what you see to suit that.
SturdyHSV said:
entropy said:
That's the problem. It's a massive undertaking. No independent team in the modern era has gone on to make/develop their own engine. Not even Ron Dennis who preferred to have free engines for McLaren.
Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
It is a massive undertaking, and as CH says in the various Sky interviews, over 300 people work for RBPT already, they've recruited an awful lot of talent from F1 teams, a state of the art factory has been built, they have already made the first engine and it has been fired up. Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
No fizzy drinks company had gone on to make a competitive championship winning F1 team before Red Bull, I think it would be naïve to think firstly that CH is somehow doing this out of his own pocket or without Mateschitz's backing, and secondly that RB won't take the challenge on and be successful at it, it's sort of what they do.
You must have read in the press how much the Oracle sponsorship deal was worth? That's just one sponsor... F1 is in excellent health commercially, RedBull aren't going to be looking down the back of the sofa to keep the Powertrains project going...
Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
If I'm honest; I also wouldn't be disappointed to see the smug, arrogant smiles wiped off Horner and Marko's smug, arrogant faces.
Muzzer79 said:
SturdyHSV said:
entropy said:
That's the problem. It's a massive undertaking. No independent team in the modern era has gone on to make/develop their own engine. Not even Ron Dennis who preferred to have free engines for McLaren.
Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
It is a massive undertaking, and as CH says in the various Sky interviews, over 300 people work for RBPT already, they've recruited an awful lot of talent from F1 teams, a state of the art factory has been built, they have already made the first engine and it has been fired up. Factor in Max on a long contract (if he stays that long) and his remuneration package as well R&D for car and engine. How long can CH keep RBPT going on its own?
No fizzy drinks company had gone on to make a competitive championship winning F1 team before Red Bull, I think it would be naïve to think firstly that CH is somehow doing this out of his own pocket or without Mateschitz's backing, and secondly that RB won't take the challenge on and be successful at it, it's sort of what they do.
You must have read in the press how much the Oracle sponsorship deal was worth? That's just one sponsor... F1 is in excellent health commercially, RedBull aren't going to be looking down the back of the sofa to keep the Powertrains project going...
Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
If I'm honest; I also wouldn't be disappointed to see the smug, arrogant smiles wiped off Horner and Marko's smug, arrogant faces.
Muzzer79 said:
I don't think Red Bull's problem is money, it's know-how.
Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
What has led you to conclude that RB are piggy backing off Honda? It's fairly well documented that Honda are supporting the current engines, but the 2026 regulations are new and the engines won't be the same. Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
I can also imagine that for RB to be in a position to entertain partnering with another OEM, there probably isn't much Honda IP involved in the 2026 engine, I don't know if Honda would allow that?
To continue with your premise that RB are piggy backing off Honda for the sake of discussion, I'd imagine Honda would know more about building F1 engines than Porsche?
Muzzer79 said:
If I'm honest; I also wouldn't be disappointed to see the smug, arrogant smiles wiped off Horner and Marko's smug, arrogant faces.
Nothing wrong with a bit of honesty!PhilAsia said:
How much of RBs headhunting was to create a dearth of talent to other teams? Taking key personnel and creating a braindrain...
Don't all of the teams want (and try) to hire the best people? Is it only malevolent when RB do it? SturdyHSV said:
..Don't all of the teams want (and try) to hire the best people? Is it only malevolent when RB do it?
You are reading something into the question that is not there. I was wondering who was left of significance after being headhunted. If RB is locking off areas of advantage to other teams then that is quality gamesmanship.PhilAsia said:
SturdyHSV said:
..Don't all of the teams want (and try) to hire the best people? Is it only malevolent when RB do it?
You are reading something into the question that is not there. I was wondering who was left of significance after being headhunted. If RB is locking off areas of advantage to other teams then that is quality gamesmanship.If RBPT already have 300 people working for them, nearly four years before their engine goes live in a race, they’ll be several hundred million quid in the hole by the time they start racing them. Not difficult to see that a manufacturer coming in to help with that investment, might be a good idea. Remember that their current PU is a rebadged Honda, stil built by the Japanese.
It does seem that the breakdown in the deal was when Dr Marko didn’t want to see Porsche as offering anything except money, whereas Porsche wanted to run it as their factory operation with their own management in place, not tied to RB management.
It does seem that the breakdown in the deal was when Dr Marko didn’t want to see Porsche as offering anything except money, whereas Porsche wanted to run it as their factory operation with their own management in place, not tied to RB management.
Sandpit Steve said:
If RBPT already have 300 people working for them, nearly four years before their engine goes live in a race, they’ll be several hundred million quid in the hole by the time they start racing them. Not difficult to see that a manufacturer coming in to help with that investment, might be a good idea. Remember that their current PU is a rebadged Honda, stil built by the Japanese.
It does seem that the breakdown in the deal was when Dr Marko didn’t want to see Porsche as offering anything except money, whereas Porsche wanted to run it as their factory operation with their own management in place, not tied to RB management.
Money really isn't a concern for them at all. Before the cost cap came into F1, Red Bull were spending in the region of $350m per year. The cost cap this year is $145m, but they make a lot more than that in prize money and sponsorship, so they needed somewhere else to spend all that money without having to give a big chunk of it to the tax man. Even with this new PT division they are spending less overall on F1 than they were two years ago.It does seem that the breakdown in the deal was when Dr Marko didn’t want to see Porsche as offering anything except money, whereas Porsche wanted to run it as their factory operation with their own management in place, not tied to RB management.
Red Bull took over $9 billion in revenue last year from fizzy drinks. I don't know what their profit margin is on that, but Dietrich Matesich personally paid himself $765m last year. The PU cost cap for developing these new engines is ~$105m per year for the next 3 years, so the total PU development budget will be less than half of one years earnings for their boss, even if they are paying for it all out of their own pocket, which they aren't.
Muzzer79 said:
I don't think Red Bull's problem is money, it's know-how.
Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
If I'm honest; I also wouldn't be disappointed to see the smug, arrogant smiles wiped off Horner and Marko's smug, arrogant faces.
Yes, they have 300 people working for them and have brought a lot of know-how in but, AIUI, they are piggy-backing a lot off Honda at the moment.
I think that they may look back at this Porsche decision and regret not getting in with a partner that can steer them in the right direction in terms of latest engine tech.
If I'm honest; I also wouldn't be disappointed to see the smug, arrogant smiles wiped off Horner and Marko's smug, arrogant faces.
PhilAsia said:
How much of RBs headhunting was to create a dearth of talent to other teams? Taking key personnel and creating a braindrain...
It's not really so much a brain drain of rivals but within RBPT?AMG HPP has incorporated Merc engineers, Honda traditionally used F1 to train their engineers.
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