What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Discussion
Dr Murdoch said:
Its not that they deserve to win, but when multiple championship winning teams, stop erm winning, its worthy of discussion.
Twas always thus.
When you’re winning it feels like you’ll never lose. When you’re losing it feels like you’ll never win. Neither are true though. Twas always thus.
I was surprised to see them start so badly.
I wrongly assumed if they where sticking with the current concept it was because they saw something in the data to suggest it was worth continuing on with.
Thought they might have cracked it and possibly made a big jump forward. To unlock the potential they saw in it.
Evidently not!!
I wrongly assumed if they where sticking with the current concept it was because they saw something in the data to suggest it was worth continuing on with.
Thought they might have cracked it and possibly made a big jump forward. To unlock the potential they saw in it.
Evidently not!!
Snappy89 said:
Couple of things being reported this evening regarding the Merc F1 team.
First is James Allison is back "hands on" which shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. Secondly is that according to the German AMuS, Merc have two alternate concepts ready to go.
On the second point, I worry that it's not a different concept - I don't really see how it can be with in season development being fairly limited these days. To change concept typically requires a change to the tub itself.First is James Allison is back "hands on" which shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. Secondly is that according to the German AMuS, Merc have two alternate concepts ready to go.
It seems more likely that its the same basic car with two separate aero solutions, the second of which is to come into play.
It seems common knowledge they anticipated a tough start to this season and were already working on a significant update way before even running the car they have, that would tally with what they have done previously when they've split development of two concepts, but it's hard to see how they can achieve that with the cost caps now in place. But who knows...
If it's true and they take a leap forward then the entire media facing team have pulled off some grade A buls
tting of everyone. Exciting to contemplate.... But also just as likely it's an over-hyped plan B in terms of aero. Either could be likely so it's wait and see time.I will say that I'd be very surprised if Merc were truly played out right now, I suspect they have 'something' more than we have seen.
I am sure they said at launch that alternative sidepods were in planning. Unfortunately this may have been the 3/10ths upgrade that Toto referred to at the weekend.
I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
rdjohn said:
I am sure they said at launch that alternative sidepods were in planning. Unfortunately this may have been the 3/10ths upgrade that Toto referred to at the weekend.
I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
If it's second or third this season that's not a disaster is it? So long as there is learning and in season progression, and so long as they capitalise on any opportunities that do come their way, then it's a respectable season in F1.I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
RB were on the back foot for ten years but we're always interesting and competitive enough to be part of the story of most GP's.
My definition of a disaster season is most of Ferrari's since their winning days, because so many times they've had a great car that is actually capable of winning but have screwed themselves every step of the way.. Or the seasons they've developed a good car to make it steadily worse.. Or that one time they cheated all season and then still lost.
TheDeuce said:
rdjohn said:
I am sure they said at launch that alternative sidepods were in planning. Unfortunately this may have been the 3/10ths upgrade that Toto referred to at the weekend.
I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
If it's second or third this season that's not a disaster is it? So long as there is learning and in season progression, and so long as they capitalise on any opportunities that do come their way, then it's a respectable season in F1.I am hoping that the abrasive nature of Bahrain perhaps lead to too little downforce at the rear and a chunk of their deficiency might be circuit specific.
However, they are very clearly on the back-foot and, at the very best, may end up fighting for second.
RB were on the back foot for ten years but we're always interesting and competitive enough to be part of the story of most GP's.
My definition of a disaster season is most of Ferrari's since their winning days, because so many times they've had a great car that is actually capable of winning but have screwed themselves every step of the way.. Or the seasons they've developed a good car to make it steadily worse.. Or that one time they cheated all season and then still lost.
In the face of potential RB domination, we'll have to be satisfied with the 'will they, won't they' intrigue of Mercedes and Ferrari, interspersed with the odd bit of Alonso excitement.
The_Race podcast discussed whether a deeper issue is the problem.
Merc say they hit their marks, development-wise, over the winter. But, the car has lost pace, compared to RBR.
Merc also say that they've tested the other concepts out there and still believe their concept has merit against the others.
The_Race asked whether Merc's parameters within and basic understanding of the new regulations is flawed?
Merc say they hit their marks, development-wise, over the winter. But, the car has lost pace, compared to RBR.
Merc also say that they've tested the other concepts out there and still believe their concept has merit against the others.
The_Race asked whether Merc's parameters within and basic understanding of the new regulations is flawed?
I still maintain that the sidepods are a red herring.
Yes, they're different to everyone else's, but most of those 'in the know' who have discussed them have said that they don't really make a lot of difference.
I'm convinced the issue is in the floor. Mercedes are lacking downforce and have high drag.
So much downforce comes from the floor, with that downforce presumably carrying no drag as it's underneath the car, this must be where they're lacking?
I'd be surprised if they had the resources to have multiple concepts on the go at once. Budget cap dictates that is unlikely.
Kravitz speculated that they had a Plan B ready if the first iteration didn't work........it depends how deep-rooted their issues are.
They seem a bit lost at the moment. Like McLaren were in the early Honda years when they pinned all their issues on the engine; blaming one thing (porpoising in 2022) for their problems without looking at the wider picture.
Yes, they're different to everyone else's, but most of those 'in the know' who have discussed them have said that they don't really make a lot of difference.
I'm convinced the issue is in the floor. Mercedes are lacking downforce and have high drag.
So much downforce comes from the floor, with that downforce presumably carrying no drag as it's underneath the car, this must be where they're lacking?
I'd be surprised if they had the resources to have multiple concepts on the go at once. Budget cap dictates that is unlikely.
Kravitz speculated that they had a Plan B ready if the first iteration didn't work........it depends how deep-rooted their issues are.
They seem a bit lost at the moment. Like McLaren were in the early Honda years when they pinned all their issues on the engine; blaming one thing (porpoising in 2022) for their problems without looking at the wider picture.
Blib said:
The_Race podcast discussed whether a deeper issue is the problem.
Merc say they hit their marks, development-wise, over the winter. But, the car has lost pace, compared to RBR.
Merc also say that they've tested the other concepts out there and still believe their concept has merit against the others.
The_Race asked whether Merc's parameters within and basic understanding of the new regulations is flawed?
I know it's obvious, but with the Astons, the second Merc team, leaving them for dead, it has to be a significant design problem. They are flummoxed. They could well jump the wrong way if they don't follow the evidence. Merc say they hit their marks, development-wise, over the winter. But, the car has lost pace, compared to RBR.
Merc also say that they've tested the other concepts out there and still believe their concept has merit against the others.
The_Race asked whether Merc's parameters within and basic understanding of the new regulations is flawed?
Hamilton closed on Sainz steadily but, it seemed, might have cooked his tyres in doing so. The back-end was lively during parts of the race, so my guess is aero. He struggled for traction away from corners. But if I think that it's tyre wear, and they don't, the odds are in favour, slightly, of me being wrong.
It's fascinating.
ntiz said:
I was surprised to see them start so badly.
I wrongly assumed if they where sticking with the current concept it was because they saw something in the data to suggest it was worth continuing on with.
Thought they might have cracked it and possibly made a big jump forward. To unlock the potential they saw in it.
Evidently not!!
I read an explanation of the weekend of why Mercedes persevered with the W13 but are already talking of re-doing the W14.I wrongly assumed if they where sticking with the current concept it was because they saw something in the data to suggest it was worth continuing on with.
Thought they might have cracked it and possibly made a big jump forward. To unlock the potential they saw in it.
Evidently not!!
The W13 generated plenty of downforce on paper (or on computer more likely) and in the wind tunnel but couldn't repeat the performance on track as it kept porpoising. The theory was that if they could solve the porpoising then they knew they were as fast or faster than Red Bull. Hence, they kept working on it.
The W14 is exactly as fast as it was designed to be but Red Bull, Aston Martin and Ferrari are all faster. The W14 has no fundamental problem that is preventing is from achieving its ultimate performance. Hence, they feel like they have gone down a dead end in terms of concept.
Snappy89 said:
Couple of things being reported this evening regarding the Merc F1 team.
First is James Allison is back "hands on" which shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. Secondly is that according to the German AMuS, Merc have two alternate concepts ready to go.
And the lead time to execute one? One podcast was saying 5 months - which would write off this season.First is James Allison is back "hands on" which shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. Secondly is that according to the German AMuS, Merc have two alternate concepts ready to go.
I hope his internal communications with the team are more motivating and positive than his outward projections to the media.
If there is a switch of design philosophy, then I find it hard to believe that 2023 won't be a development year, and 3rd or 4th in the constructors might be their ceiling
If there is a switch of design philosophy, then I find it hard to believe that 2023 won't be a development year, and 3rd or 4th in the constructors might be their ceiling
mat205125 said:
I hope his internal communications with the team are more motivating and positive than his outward projections to the media.
Indeed. They say you learn more about someone's true character when under pressure, and he's had it very easy until the last year. I found some of his comments after Sunday's race quite surprising. He's actually a bit of a drama queen.thegreenhell said:
mat205125 said:
I hope his internal communications with the team are more motivating and positive than his outward projections to the media.
Indeed. They say you learn more about someone's true character when under pressure, and he's had it very easy until the last year. I found some of his comments after Sunday's race quite surprising. He's actually a bit of a drama queen.thegreenhell said:
mat205125 said:
I hope his internal communications with the team are more motivating and positive than his outward projections to the media.
Indeed. They say you learn more about someone's true character when under pressure, and he's had it very easy until the last year. I found some of his comments after Sunday's race quite surprising. He's actually a bit of a drama queen.And so did Hamilton, who said ‘we won’t win with this concept’/
I don’t believe that the owner/leader of an F1 team decides on the spot to change the teams design direction and then decides that the first his team will hear of it when he announces it publicly, on the spur of the moment.
Neither do I believe that Hamilton would say - without having had detailed conversations about what was necessary/needed (i.e foreknowledge) - that they won’t win with their current car concept. Every weekend he is meticulous in his care to thank colleagues in the the team and the work of everyone in the factory. That message would be a bit of a counterproductive on to broadcast in public, in his mind, if fresh.
So I think mercedes already knew they were going to be switching concept, or perhaps had been planning the possibility for a while and were using this weekends relative performance to influence a go/no go decision.
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