Angela Cullen and Lewis go their separate ways

Angela Cullen and Lewis go their separate ways

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paulguitar

23,104 posts

112 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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RacerMike said:
This is the issue. You take any discussion that you perceive as negative to Lewis as some kind of personal attack on yourself. Why do I have to be a qualified psychologist to express an opinion on personality traits which are present? I’m not in anyway (and my post yesterday certainly didn’t) ‘diagnose’ him with anything, but mused as to why I find his behaviour difficult to like giving examples and illustrating that the reasons for those behaviours is quite probably due to some degree of narcissistic personality disorder.

Whichever why I discuss this, you’ll come up with yet another reason why I can’t/shouldn’t.

And to say someone is narcissistic isn’t specifically some sort of slight.
Mrs. Guitar is a psychologist. You may be aware of the 'Goldwater rule' which recommends caution surrounding giving a professional opinion about public figures whom they have not examined in person. However, for the sake of getting an opinion on this from someone who is qualified to give one, I asked her about it, and read her your post from yesterday. She doesn't agree with you. At all.


It's not that Hamilton is beyond criticism, but that is really all you do and it's tedious. Most of us don't spend lots of time running down one particular driver, why would we?









Edited by paulguitar on Monday 20th March 15:44

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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RacerMike said:
This is the issue. You take any discussion that you perceive as negative to Lewis as some kind of personal attack on yourself. Why do I have to be a qualified psychologist to express an opinion on some personality traits which are present? I’m not in anyway (and my post yesterday certainly didn’t) ‘diagnosing’ him with anything, but am musing as to why I find his behaviour difficult to like, giving examples and illustrating that the reasons for those behaviours is quite probably due to some degree of narcissistic personality disorder.

Whichever way I discuss this, you’ll come up with yet another reason why I can’t/shouldn’t.

And to say someone is narcissistic isn’t specifically some sort of slight.

The fact is, I, and a good number of people find him difficult to like because he doesn’t come across well to us. The same reasons why people don’t like Max or Fernando.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a driver, be that Lewis or any of the others. That's your personal choice.

What people take umbrage with is the weird theories and justification as to why. Like the comments about his disloyalty, not being admired by former teams, 'ditching' family and friends.

If you don't like his personality, just say so. But dressing it up and theorising that his split with his trainer is an example of things not going well for him so he targets those close to him is just a little.......out there. So you'll be called out.

I don't like Christian Horner. I don't like the way he conducts himself in an F1 sense. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice chap outside of work, but in the F1 circle, I don't like how he operates.
I'm not casting views on him as a man or theorising as to why he is the way he is. If he sacks his secretary, I don't really care and don't think it's symbolic of his personality.

The difference is with Lewis is that people don't seem to be able to seperate their judgement of him as an F1 driver and him as a person. Indeed, they think those two sides of his personality are somehow interlinked. Which is unfair.

PhilAsia

3,697 posts

74 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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RacerMike said:
PhilAsia said:
Hilarious reading. Carry on...

Ah. Nothing like a good old straw man.

It’s frustrating that every single thing that is discussed about Lewis or anything to do with him gets completely shouted down. Absolutely no one is prepared to just have a sensible discussion about things without getting tribal.
.......don't judge a book by its cover.... smile


Edited by PhilAsia on Monday 20th March 18:58

maz8062

2,173 posts

214 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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Muzzer79 said:
RacerMike said:
This is the issue. You take any discussion that you perceive as negative to Lewis as some kind of personal attack on yourself. Why do I have to be a qualified psychologist to express an opinion on some personality traits which are present? I’m not in anyway (and my post yesterday certainly didn’t) ‘diagnosing’ him with anything, but am musing as to why I find his behaviour difficult to like, giving examples and illustrating that the reasons for those behaviours is quite probably due to some degree of narcissistic personality disorder.

Whichever way I discuss this, you’ll come up with yet another reason why I can’t/shouldn’t.

And to say someone is narcissistic isn’t specifically some sort of slight.

The fact is, I, and a good number of people find him difficult to like because he doesn’t come across well to us. The same reasons why people don’t like Max or Fernando.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a driver, be that Lewis or any of the others. That's your personal choice.

What people take umbrage with is the weird theories and justification as to why. Like the comments about his disloyalty, not being admired by former teams, 'ditching' family and friends.

If you don't like his personality, just say so. But dressing it up and theorising that his split with his trainer is an example of things not going well for him so he targets those close to him is just a little.......out there. So you'll be called out.

I don't like Christian Horner. I don't like the way he conducts himself in an F1 sense. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice chap outside of work, but in the F1 circle, I don't like how he operates.
I'm not casting views on him as a man or theorising as to why he is the way he is. If he sacks his secretary, I don't really care and don't think it's symbolic of his personality.

The difference is with Lewis is that people don't seem to be able to seperate their judgement of him as an F1 driver and him as a person. Indeed, they think those two sides of his personality are somehow interlinked. Which is unfair.
I’ve already stated that I’ve been a huge fan of LH from 2007 or 15 years. I’ve never criticised him, I just see anomalies, a pattern of behaviour over that time and a Peter Pan like immaturity that he doesn’t seem to have matured from.

Not being married is fine, not having children is his choice, I don’t care, but not having friends at a job you’ve been doing for 15 years is odd in my view. Sutil was his friend back in the day and I can understand why he didn’t want to get caught up in criminality. But no one else knows him, not Button, Heikki, Bottas, even Rosberg nor Russell.

Sometimes in life, being curious is fine, it doesn’t mean that you’re picking on someone or being critical - in fact it’s trying to understand what makes some one tick. It’s none of our business of course but it’s also not a crime.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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maz8062 said:
Not having friends at a job you’ve been doing for 15 years is odd in my view. Sutil was his friend back in the day and I can understand why he didn’t want to get caught up in criminality. But no one else knows him, not Button, Heikki, Bottas, even Rosberg nor Russell.
F1 is a curious sport. One the one hand, it's you and your car, fighting everyone else. On the other, it's a team sport with hundreds of people producing the car that you're driving.

From a 'friends' perspective, I don't think it's odd that he distances himself from the rest of his competitors. It may not be particularly sociable but these are his competitors at the end of the day - people he wants to beat. Not sharing drinks and laughs with them is logical when you think about it.

Some drivers can seperate friendship and rivalry and get on with each other. More power to them. But i don't think it marks one out as an anomaly to not socialise with one's competitors in sport.

Tiger Woods, for example, whilst friendly to other golfers is/was known for being a bit of a lone wolf.



GiantCardboardPlato

4,052 posts

20 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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I cannot possibly understand why the only black driver ever to compete in F1, who comes from a fairly ordinary background without substantial wealth or privilege (not so dissimilar really to Alonso and Vettel), really doesn't spend more of his time with the children of if not simply well off, then super-rich white millionaires and billionaires. Most of those children are now 10-15 years younger than Hamilton now, too. But yeah, the reason he doesn't hang out with them is that he's probably weird. I don't think it could be that they're just... professional acquaintances. the fact they're all in F1 means they should be best. buds.

MustangGT

11,553 posts

279 months

Monday 20th March 2023
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RacerMike said:
paulguitar said:
RacerMike said:
Ah. Nothing like a good old straw man.

It’s frustrating that every single thing that is discussed about Lewis or anything to do with him gets completely shouted down. Absolutely no one is prepared to just have a sensible discussion about things without getting tribal.
Last night you spent a large amount of time trying to portray him, without any qualifications to do so, as suffering from a personality disorder.

If you talk st, prepare to be 'shouted down'.
This is the issue. You take any discussion that you perceive as negative to Lewis as some kind of personal attack on yourself.
This statement makes no sense whatsoever. The only person taking things personally appears to be you. Nothing in the above comments by PaulG are showing any sense of taking things personally.

From reading a high proportion of your statements over the years it is obvious you have a personal dislike of Hamilton, which is fine. However making up stuff to support your view is just nonsense and that is why people contradict your points.

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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Muzzer79 said:
RacerMike said:
This is the issue. You take any discussion that you perceive as negative to Lewis as some kind of personal attack on yourself. Why do I have to be a qualified psychologist to express an opinion on some personality traits which are present? I’m not in anyway (and my post yesterday certainly didn’t) ‘diagnosing’ him with anything, but am musing as to why I find his behaviour difficult to like, giving examples and illustrating that the reasons for those behaviours is quite probably due to some degree of narcissistic personality disorder.

Whichever way I discuss this, you’ll come up with yet another reason why I can’t/shouldn’t.

And to say someone is narcissistic isn’t specifically some sort of slight.

The fact is, I, and a good number of people find him difficult to like because he doesn’t come across well to us. The same reasons why people don’t like Max or Fernando.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a driver, be that Lewis or any of the others. That's your personal choice.

What people take umbrage with is the weird theories and justification as to why. Like the comments about his disloyalty, not being admired by former teams, 'ditching' family and friends.

If you don't like his personality, just say so. But dressing it up and theorising that his split with his trainer is an example of things not going well for him so he targets those close to him is just a little.......out there. So you'll be called out.

I don't like Christian Horner. I don't like the way he conducts himself in an F1 sense. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice chap outside of work, but in the F1 circle, I don't like how he operates.
I'm not casting views on him as a man or theorising as to why he is the way he is. If he sacks his secretary, I don't really care and don't think it's symbolic of his personality.

The difference is with Lewis is that people don't seem to be able to seperate their judgement of him as an F1 driver and him as a person. Indeed, they think those two sides of his personality are somehow interlinked. Which is unfair.
That’s my thoughts too. RacerMike, it’s not you disliking him that I made my points about, that’s perfectly fine. It’s you diagnosing him with stuff despite being far from a position to do so. I asked stuff like give your evidence on this latest breakup being because of his narcissist personality, but you replied with nothing. Yet in other posts you said you based it only on facts. I have an alternative interpretation to it too.

Hamilton clearly holds himself away from stuff in F1 compared to quite a few others, which might be a bit of immaturity or it might be his history - look at Rosberg - childhood friends but they felt out due to the competition. He may well just want to avoid that and focus on other friends elsewhere. Again, I have no idea if that is the reason or not. He was also apparently the driver to organise and pay for Vettel’s leaving dinner too. That doesn’t mean he’s great, but there’s lots of stuff we don’t see too.

That’s not defending him like it was me, just mental health stuff is very risky to diagnosis in a celeb without knowing them even if a psychologist, instead you put it on him without that background. That’s where it’s a bit strange instead of saying I don’t like him because he’s aloof etc.

Horner from what I understand is a great boss and will stick by his people and look after them (well, perhaps unless they’re a struggling driver!) but it’s difficult to like him because of the hypocrisy in public - although I understand the reasons for it. He’ll do/say anything to gain an advantage and that is what you need as a team boss. So it makes it hard for me to like him, but I have no idea about his position on any spectrum, we don’t see the real him. It’s all a way of portraying yourself to the public. I’d guess Hamilton being aloof is because of the huge media attention he gets, instead of saying stuff and being torn apart he avoids saying much beyond the stuff he should. It’s the opposite of Horner who just goes full on pantomime villain and says loads of stuff that you never believe him fully. But then again, Horner has far less attention on him from outside F1 like Hamilton does so it might be easier.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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My friend Gary quit his paper round after 15 months and jacked in his job at Londis a few years later, probably thought it was below him. He tells me he 'graduated' from Uni. Suppose he thought he was too good for that too. Doesn't stay in a job for more than about 7 years at a time. He's now 38, not married, no kids- what a self important . Clearly a narcissist. No friends as far as I can tell. None that he's introduced me to, anyway. Whenever I hear from him he's playing some obscure sport, messing around in some music studio or attending some upscale event in the city. How I hate Gary.

TriumphStag3.0V8

3,792 posts

80 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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HustleRussell said:
My friend Gary quit his paper round after 15 months and jacked in his job at Londis a few years later, probably thought it was below him. He tells me he 'graduated' from Uni. Suppose he thought he was too good for that too. Doesn't stay in a job for more than about 7 years at a time. He's now 38, not married, no kids- what a self important . Clearly a narcissist. No friends as far as I can tell. None that he's introduced me to, anyway. Whenever I hear from him he's playing some obscure sport, messing around in some music studio or attending some upscale event in the city. How I hate Gary

Byker28i

58,830 posts

216 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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GiantCardboardPlato said:
RacerMike said:
Ah. Nothing like a good old straw man.

It’s frustrating that every single thing that is discussed about Lewis or anything to do with him gets completely shouted down. Absolutely no one is prepared to just have a sensible discussion about things without getting tribal.
Why don’t you try basing your posts on publicly confirmable facts and observations and use those to draw your conclusions, rather than a mixture of ‘i know a guy who…’ and reasoning-from-assumption?
Bit hard to argue with someone who says first hand anecdotal evidence isn't acceptable, because it's not published somewhere.

GiantCardboardPlato

4,052 posts

20 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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I once saw Lewis eat a baby whole. Worse than that, it was raw. Prove me wrong.

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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There are only two things I have in mind when I think of Lewis - the way he is with kids in the paddock, stops to sign stuff and chat to them. And the way he plays with his brother and nephew/nieces. He just seems to be a lovely person based upon what very little I have seen. But the best bit is he is a fast and clean racer - he is the GOAT without cheating.

MustangGT

11,553 posts

279 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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Jasandjules said:
There are only two things I have in mind when I think of Lewis - the way he is with kids in the paddock, stops to sign stuff and chat to them. And the way he plays with his brother and nephew/nieces. He just seems to be a lovely person based upon what very little I have seen. But the best bit is he is a fast and clean racer - he is the GOAT without cheating.
clapclap

vulture1

12,125 posts

178 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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GiantCardboardPlato said:
I once saw Lewis eat a baby whole. Worse than that, it was raw. Prove me wrong.
I was the baby.
Lewis maybe sees everything as a potential competitive advantage/ disadvantage so even socialising with other drivers might open up a crack to exploit.

maz8062

2,173 posts

214 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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Jasandjules said:
There are only two things I have in mind when I think of Lewis - the way he is with kids in the paddock, stops to sign stuff and chat to them. And the way he plays with his brother and nephew/nieces. He just seems to be a lovely person based upon what very little I have seen. But the best bit is he is a fast and clean racer - he is the GOAT without cheating.
This is my point - these are all fleeting interactions and he’s great; friendly, personable, polite and shows a genuine interest in people during that first meeting. My point is that beyond that he doesn’t appear to be popular and in some cases attracts deep hate.

For those that don’t like him, it’s very easy to dismiss them as racists and LH plays on that, but I think there’s a darker side to him that we don’t see. It was for this reason that Alonso, Button & Rosberg were able to create divisions with their respective teams.

For example, you won’t see LH pop down the pitlane for a quick natter with Whitmarsh or Vowles, or any of the McLaren lot, that’s not his style. He’s more likely to be fawning in some outfit for social media audiences.

It doesn’t mean that he’s a bad person, he’s not, I’d just like some of the love that fans shower on him to be replicated within F1 the sport. The sport doesn’t see him as its ambassador, its GOAT - not because of his colour or ethnicity, more in my view because he is not relatable to the sport. F1 is a means to an end and the reason why I don’t think he’ll retire anytime soon.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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Despite your protestations I think its quite apparent that you aren't a fan. Otherwise, why all the negative speculation about his behaviour and character?

Very odd.

PhilAsia

3,697 posts

74 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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Outside of the car I don't care too much what drivers do. I am not close to them and you only see what the media and their public persona wants you to see - basing your view on those will give a stilted opinion I would think.

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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maz8062 said:
This is my point - these are all fleeting interactions and he’s great; friendly, personable, polite and shows a genuine interest in people during that first meeting. My point is that beyond that he doesn’t appear to be popular and in some cases attracts deep hate.

For those that don’t like him, it’s very easy to dismiss them as racists and LH plays on that, but I think there’s a darker side to him that we don’t see. It was for this reason that Alonso, Button & Rosberg were able to create divisions with their respective teams.

For example, you won’t see LH pop down the pitlane for a quick natter with Whitmarsh or Vowles, or any of the McLaren lot, that’s not his style. He’s more likely to be fawning in some outfit for social media audiences.

It doesn’t mean that he’s a bad person, he’s not, I’d just like some of the love that fans shower on him to be replicated within F1 the sport. The sport doesn’t see him as its ambassador, its GOAT - not because of his colour or ethnicity, more in my view because he is not relatable to the sport. F1 is a means to an end and the reason why I don’t think he’ll retire anytime soon.
That’s fair enough, and from my very limited understanding of him seems to be true. He doesn’t involve himself publicly in all the F1 stuff like some others. I think he just has different focuses - quite a lot outside of F1, where he tends to focus on the team and the race, plus a bit of saying hi to some fans. The social media side of things is absolutely not me, but fair play to him if he likes it (and also he clearly makes a lot of money off it too).

That said, I’d say he’s as much the face of F1 as anyone else. He and Max are the ones typically pushed as a huge rivalry by F1 and paid the big money based on that too.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Tuesday 21st March 2023
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maz8062 said:
For example, you won’t see LH pop down the pitlane for a quick natter with Whitmarsh or Vowles, or any of the McLaren lot, that’s not his style..
This is your opinion, which you are entitled to.

But I have to query this bit.

You don’t see Sainz in the Red bull pit having a natter, or LeClerc mooching around at Sauber. Maybe it’s because they do it in private.
Maybe they don’t know many people there now, maybe they are busy at their current teams…..working.

It seems odd to single Lewis out for this. Sure, we’ve seen some drivers catching up with old colleagues over the years but it’s surely the exception?