'kin Hell - just what is the point of modern f1?
Discussion
It's funny how many people persist with the idea that to make F1 better, aero has to be reduced/got rid of. It's been a growing area of the sport for decades now and actually it's quite interesting stuff imo 
It's also an area in which the teams can truly differentiate themselves by which established concept they follow/adopt or what they create themselves which is entirely new and unique.
I do understand that if it was reduced, a greater dependance on mechanical grip would lead to cars moving around more, more mid-corner mistakes and passes and so on... But it also wouldn't really be F1 anymore because these cars are supposed to be the fastest and the most technically advanced non spec racing cars - but they can't be any such thing without modern levels of aero engineering.
To me, suggesting a reduction of aero to make one aspect of the sport better, entirely ignores what would be lost as a result of that change. It's too crude as a solution and it never really works to make something 'as good as it was', by simply rolling back history and doing it the way it was done 30 years ago. It won't fit in with the modern world of motorsport, it won't make sense, that time has gone.
The return to ground effect downforce is actually a better compromise taking all things into account, and it has worked - the cars can follow more closely and pass more easily. The problem is that it's been a huge shake up in how the cars are designed and one team has ended up miles ahead with their design which is unfortunate... But not actually a fault with the sport or it's current regs so far as I can see. The whole point of running these race seasons is to find out who built and drives the best car within the regs, and we can't look to change the rules of play just because one team happened to do a particularly good job - they have to be allowed to do a particularly good job!
This will all settle down over the coming years and RB will absolutely not enjoy the stonking advantage they have right now for all that long. They may well, in fact arguably should stay ahead as they got the head start. But the others will catch up, Ferrari are already nearly there, AMR are nearly there, Mercedes are not that far off and somehow managing that with an entirely different design, they will probably start to emulate the RB concept next season and become closer.
And that's just about fighting for P1, already the new regs have provided an unbelievably tight pack top to bottom, there is so much racing and genuine competition if you look beyond the race winner.
It's also an area in which the teams can truly differentiate themselves by which established concept they follow/adopt or what they create themselves which is entirely new and unique.
I do understand that if it was reduced, a greater dependance on mechanical grip would lead to cars moving around more, more mid-corner mistakes and passes and so on... But it also wouldn't really be F1 anymore because these cars are supposed to be the fastest and the most technically advanced non spec racing cars - but they can't be any such thing without modern levels of aero engineering.
To me, suggesting a reduction of aero to make one aspect of the sport better, entirely ignores what would be lost as a result of that change. It's too crude as a solution and it never really works to make something 'as good as it was', by simply rolling back history and doing it the way it was done 30 years ago. It won't fit in with the modern world of motorsport, it won't make sense, that time has gone.
The return to ground effect downforce is actually a better compromise taking all things into account, and it has worked - the cars can follow more closely and pass more easily. The problem is that it's been a huge shake up in how the cars are designed and one team has ended up miles ahead with their design which is unfortunate... But not actually a fault with the sport or it's current regs so far as I can see. The whole point of running these race seasons is to find out who built and drives the best car within the regs, and we can't look to change the rules of play just because one team happened to do a particularly good job - they have to be allowed to do a particularly good job!
This will all settle down over the coming years and RB will absolutely not enjoy the stonking advantage they have right now for all that long. They may well, in fact arguably should stay ahead as they got the head start. But the others will catch up, Ferrari are already nearly there, AMR are nearly there, Mercedes are not that far off and somehow managing that with an entirely different design, they will probably start to emulate the RB concept next season and become closer.
And that's just about fighting for P1, already the new regs have provided an unbelievably tight pack top to bottom, there is so much racing and genuine competition if you look beyond the race winner.
I suspect that some of the rage shown about F1's supposed inadequacies comes from the more rabid fan who treats it as reality TV show (which it can feel like sometimes ) and who has a very short attention span . I've watched F1 since the early 70s and what has changed immensely is the fan base - back when I were a lad most people who were interested in F1 were motor sport enthusiasts ,with the GP as a highlight of the year but very far from being the only show in town . So we'd attend FF1600, 2000 , F3 and F2/F5000/ F3000 races , spot the coming men who were destined for the top and enjoy F1 as the peak of the pyramid .
But now F1 has become a separate sport - so many people I meet will share their view on Max and George , get moist about cuddly Lando but have never been near a race track and show no interest in or knowledge of any facet of motor sport outside F1 . The same folk have no interest in the sport's heritage (cos history's boring right ? ) and little or no interest in the technical side. And that means you get an 18 page thread on how Lewis has split from from his physio but a handful of posts on the death of a great like Gurney or even Moss
But now F1 has become a separate sport - so many people I meet will share their view on Max and George , get moist about cuddly Lando but have never been near a race track and show no interest in or knowledge of any facet of motor sport outside F1 . The same folk have no interest in the sport's heritage (cos history's boring right ? ) and little or no interest in the technical side. And that means you get an 18 page thread on how Lewis has split from from his physio but a handful of posts on the death of a great like Gurney or even Moss
coppice said:
I suspect that some of the rage shown about F1's supposed inadequacies comes from the more rabid fan who treats it as reality TV show (which it can feel like sometimes ) and who has a very short attention span . I've watched F1 since the early 70s and what has changed immensely is the fan base - back when I were a lad most people who were interested in F1 were motor sport enthusiasts ,with the GP as a highlight of the year but very far from being the only show in town . So we'd attend FF1600, 2000 , F3 and F2/F5000/ F3000 races , spot the coming men who were destined for the top and enjoy F1 as the peak of the pyramid .
But now F1 has become a separate sport - so many people I meet will share their view on Max and George , get moist about cuddly Lando but have never been near a race track and show no interest in or knowledge of any facet of motor sport outside F1 . The same folk have no interest in the sport's heritage (cos history's boring right ? ) and little or no interest in the technical side. And that means you get an 18 page thread on how Lewis has split from from his physio but a handful of posts on the death of a great like Gurney or even Moss
It's a bit mixed - quite a few complaining are the old school ones who are annoyed it is now being gamed for the type of fan you are describing. But now F1 has become a separate sport - so many people I meet will share their view on Max and George , get moist about cuddly Lando but have never been near a race track and show no interest in or knowledge of any facet of motor sport outside F1 . The same folk have no interest in the sport's heritage (cos history's boring right ? ) and little or no interest in the technical side. And that means you get an 18 page thread on how Lewis has split from from his physio but a handful of posts on the death of a great like Gurney or even Moss
Well I still love it , much as I loathe many of the venues where F 1 races are held , and the ghastly regimes which buy races. But if I ignore the froth, the incessant social media waffle and the hysterical fanbase , it is still the greatest show on earth. As somebody said , a long time ago (possibly DSJ ?) "when the flag drops the bulls
t stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat .
t stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat . coppice said:
Well I still love it , much as I loathe many of the venues where F 1 races are held , and the ghastly regimes which buy races. But if I ignore the froth, the incessant social media waffle and the hysterical fanbase , it is still the greatest show on earth. As somebody said , a long time ago (possibly DSJ ?) "when the flag drops the bullst stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat .
I believe that quote was Frank Gardner.t stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat . coppice said:
Well I still love it , much as I loathe many of the venues where F 1 races are held , and the ghastly regimes which buy races. But if I ignore the froth, the incessant social media waffle and the hysterical fanbase , it is still the greatest show on earth. As somebody said , a long time ago (possibly DSJ ?) "when the flag drops the bullst stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat .
Glad you still enjoy it! But for those I mentioned probably the biggest issue is the BS isn't stopping when the flag drops - there's lots of weird decisions that are occurring once that has happened, which is the big issue! I honestly have no idea what safety cars are based on these days, or what style of overtake is allowed, the decisions are all over the place and seem to be more decided on what makes things most "exciting" rather than anything consistent in the rules. t stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat . It's also very clear that once a decision has been made all the effort goes into supporting that decision at any cost, rather than saying a mistake was made. The issue being it then creates more confusion as then it's not clear in future if it's the way the rule was always interpreted, or the new version that was then supported by the F1 show.
I saw this comment about Domenicali's remark on possible FP ban and struggled to disagree with most of it.
I never got Domenicali. I don't know him obviously and I know how successful and supposedly smart he must be. He doesn't seem to be quite there though, something odd about him.
MabMav +4202
"What a joke...or joker,not sure....more like a tragedy. F1 is more lob sided than it has ever been,thanks to the ban on in season testing.3 Days pre season testing was already a joke,now they want to get rid of the only sessions that teams can use to test parts This will result in more and more teams switching to the next year,earlier and earlier....a trend that was already picking up pace F1 has forgotten that it used to be a sport.....a motor sport. F1 fans,real hardcore F1 fans,can't wait for FP sessions as we get to see new bits and pieces and what effect they have on the car,we get to gauge the tire wear and the differences in performance.We are more interested in brake bias,ride height and suspension geometry than we are in the driver's personal lives,that lately is being showcased like a episode of real housewives,just a lot more cattier We don't want stock car racing,I want to see different looking cars,racing closer together because they are allowed to test,in season. The recipe is simple.....the fastest drivers in the most technically advanced cars,racing them on the limit on real race tracks,not Miami,not Vegas ......real tracks where the limits are enforced by grass or gravel.Also make the cars less aero dependant,so that driver skill becomes more important. When F1 has finished turning itself into a joke of a circus and the new fan base that is so easily bored,cast their attention elsewhere to a new fad,they will realize that they also alienated the hard core F1 fan and will have nothing left."
I never got Domenicali. I don't know him obviously and I know how successful and supposedly smart he must be. He doesn't seem to be quite there though, something odd about him.
MabMav +4202
"What a joke...or joker,not sure....more like a tragedy. F1 is more lob sided than it has ever been,thanks to the ban on in season testing.3 Days pre season testing was already a joke,now they want to get rid of the only sessions that teams can use to test parts This will result in more and more teams switching to the next year,earlier and earlier....a trend that was already picking up pace F1 has forgotten that it used to be a sport.....a motor sport. F1 fans,real hardcore F1 fans,can't wait for FP sessions as we get to see new bits and pieces and what effect they have on the car,we get to gauge the tire wear and the differences in performance.We are more interested in brake bias,ride height and suspension geometry than we are in the driver's personal lives,that lately is being showcased like a episode of real housewives,just a lot more cattier We don't want stock car racing,I want to see different looking cars,racing closer together because they are allowed to test,in season. The recipe is simple.....the fastest drivers in the most technically advanced cars,racing them on the limit on real race tracks,not Miami,not Vegas ......real tracks where the limits are enforced by grass or gravel.Also make the cars less aero dependant,so that driver skill becomes more important. When F1 has finished turning itself into a joke of a circus and the new fan base that is so easily bored,cast their attention elsewhere to a new fad,they will realize that they also alienated the hard core F1 fan and will have nothing left."
Are they the fastest drivers or most technically advanced cars though? How do you define either?
In my mind for it to be a true test of man and machine it needs to step back a long way from what it is now. Far too many people involved with working out strategies, setups etc. It's madness in my eyes that data is being transferred real time to rooms full of people who are then, in some cases, feeding that into a driver in the loop simulator.
Simplify the whole process so there is far more emphasis on two or three people plus the driver to work out setup and race strategy. Doesn't matter if you have the best car on the grid or not if you're out of the window on either of those. There is far, far more to being a great driver than just being fast but I feel a lot of that is lost in F1 these days.
In my mind for it to be a true test of man and machine it needs to step back a long way from what it is now. Far too many people involved with working out strategies, setups etc. It's madness in my eyes that data is being transferred real time to rooms full of people who are then, in some cases, feeding that into a driver in the loop simulator.
Simplify the whole process so there is far more emphasis on two or three people plus the driver to work out setup and race strategy. Doesn't matter if you have the best car on the grid or not if you're out of the window on either of those. There is far, far more to being a great driver than just being fast but I feel a lot of that is lost in F1 these days.
For me the issue is quite simple. The powers that be need to decide whether it is sport or entertainment. It cannot be both and they should decide and declare which it is.
If it is sport (which I would prefer) then set the rules and stick to them.
If it is entertainment (not for me) then admit that and move on.
If it is sport (which I would prefer) then set the rules and stick to them.
If it is entertainment (not for me) then admit that and move on.
The trouble is with American owners you are always going to have a swing towards entertainment, that is their make up, that is how sport works in america and they are often so arrogant they think the whole world wants that too, despite that very few people worldwide take an interest in American sports compared to soccer, cricket, motorsport, golf, rugby etc etc.
f1 has not been a sport for a very long time, but these days it is how much of the garbage you can put up with and how good the racing is, the racing is average at best, people get excited about the odd race but compared to some racing it really is not that flash, but you are being conditioned to expect very occasional moments of goodness. that is f1 has done for a long time.
All f1 needs to make it more interesting is jeopardy, be it tyres, fuel, pitstops, weather, strategy. At the moment there is often only one way you can do well, that leads to early tedium followed by very brief moments of activity, that is called endurance racing, not f1!!
The two are remarkably similar if you step back and take a look at the very basics. Yet one has hardly any following, yet far more passing and jeopardy, the other has an immense following yet never any jeopardy poor racing and stricter rules.
f1 has not been a sport for a very long time, but these days it is how much of the garbage you can put up with and how good the racing is, the racing is average at best, people get excited about the odd race but compared to some racing it really is not that flash, but you are being conditioned to expect very occasional moments of goodness. that is f1 has done for a long time.
All f1 needs to make it more interesting is jeopardy, be it tyres, fuel, pitstops, weather, strategy. At the moment there is often only one way you can do well, that leads to early tedium followed by very brief moments of activity, that is called endurance racing, not f1!!
The two are remarkably similar if you step back and take a look at the very basics. Yet one has hardly any following, yet far more passing and jeopardy, the other has an immense following yet never any jeopardy poor racing and stricter rules.
LukeBrown66 said:
The trouble is with American owners you are always going to have a swing towards entertainment, that is their make up, that is how sport works in america and they are often so arrogant they think the whole world wants that too, despite that very few people worldwide take an interest in American sports compared to soccer, cricket, motorsport, golf, rugby etc etc.
ThisI'm not looking forward to Miami or Vegas, it's just a complete cringe-fest
Austin's alright-ish
coppice said:
As somebody said , a long time ago (possibly DSJ ?) "when the flag drops the bullst stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat .
That and the stewards getting involved in the racing. And track limits. You could also say the tyres and DRS also... t stops" . And so it does , except over the incredibly annoying in car radios , which I'd ban in a heartbeat . At a given season F1 generally has a dominant team or two and more than two on rare occasions.
Most people would like to see a competitive WDC between at least two teams.
A single driver in the outright best team/car dominating the season isn't great entertainment.
Organically, that is how F1 works.
If you want F1 to have a WDC battle like 2021 (minus the toxic politics, obviously) then the only way is to manufacturer it. How long before F1 incorporates BoP?
Most people would like to see a competitive WDC between at least two teams.
A single driver in the outright best team/car dominating the season isn't great entertainment.
Organically, that is how F1 works.
If you want F1 to have a WDC battle like 2021 (minus the toxic politics, obviously) then the only way is to manufacturer it. How long before F1 incorporates BoP?
NRS said:
One of the other issues post liberty in particular is the manipulation of races. It’s always been there but it seems to have increased a bit more now - or is done in a more clumsy way. They like to try and close the pack up if possible to get more overtakes. The issue is F1 isn’t really about a lot of overtakes, there’s other series for that, it’s about the long term strategy and seeing someone close up and wondering if they will be able to pass in the few remaining laps. When they then throw a safety car or bend the rules (like Abu Dhabi 2021) it is actually really obvious what is going to happen for anyone with experience, and so makes it less interesting for them.
American style racing, race to the yellows and safety cars. Watch an IMSA race and after wonder why you bothered. They close up the cars into packs, removing any gaps. The 'race' doesn't exist.Now I understand why IMSA are offering it for free. It's awful.
nickfrog said:
thiscocks said:
That and the stewards getting involved in the racing.
Sorry you don't want the stewards to get involved in the racing ? How does that work? A free for all?entropy said:
If you want F1 to have a WDC battle like 2021 (minus the toxic politics, obviously) then the only way is to manufacturer it. How long before F1 incorporates BoP?
But then what's the point of innovating?Have two championships: Driver's in F2-like cars and Constructors in F1 cars.
Then we get the best of both.
boxedin said:
American style racing, race to the yellows and safety cars. Watch an IMSA race and after wonder why you bothered. They close up the cars into packs, removing any gaps. The 'race' doesn't exist.
Now I understand why IMSA are offering it for free. It's awful.
Having spent considerable time in North America I can confirm this. There's really a series of shorter stints interspersed with yellow flags and safety cars that bring the pack together for the final sprint. And often those yellow flags and safety cars are of dubious provenance with a clear whiff of trying to guide the race in an "entertaining" way. This certainly does sound familiar to what we have seen in F1 since the Liberty takeover.Now I understand why IMSA are offering it for free. It's awful.
I'm less fussed about the regulations - Red Bull have done a better job than others, Aston have also played a blinder (and yes, perhaps "budget cap" means different things to different people). But things should come together over time in that regard whilst I imagine the yellow flags, the safety cars and the manufacturing of drama will be around for a lot longer.
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