Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
Jasandjules said:
They did cheat by breaking the cost cap and it is arguable that this breach has led to the current package.
However, it seems to be very simple - Newey.
He has, as is often the case, designed a monster of a machine and now they have a more powerful engine, it is unstoppable.
The answer? Perhaps they should take a hacksaw to the aero as they did with the 2021 Merc - after the slinkypinks showed how effective it was in '20. However, it seems to be very simple - Newey.
He has, as is often the case, designed a monster of a machine and now they have a more powerful engine, it is unstoppable.
After all, it's only fair, as we have seen how effective the RB is in 2022/23.
Newey deserves a lot of credit but it takes more than one man to design a modern F1 car, there is a whole team behind him, all bright people with a very specific area of expertise, Newey is good (I can’t fault a guy who races a GT40 in his spare time) but I’m sure even he would say the whole RB engineering team deserves greater recognition.
kalexan273 said:
Are Red Bull cheating? Probably not, though under the new revised rules they do seem to have designed a car that generates a good amount of downforce but also seems to be able to bleed that off more quickly than the rest as the car accelerates. Is there a way to do that through aero without using some sort of a mechanical device? I'm not sure, Mercedes was dabbling with Mass Dampers linked to the rear suspension in the 21 season but they got banned.
I watched a video on the Autosports youtube channel featuring Blake Hinsey, he's an ex Red Bull engineer, he seemed to think it's not just aero but also linked to the suspension design where the team is gaining an advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4uY1BO0hLY
Blake has his own channel on youtube 'brrrakef1', well worth a watch if you want to get a more tech view of the F1 cars.
https://www.youtube.com/@brrrake/about
I watched that and he basically didnt know, just made some guesses on how good it is with the tyres and keeping them within the window. It's easy to point to suspension for that. If you were to ask whats special about the suspension, no one will know.I watched a video on the Autosports youtube channel featuring Blake Hinsey, he's an ex Red Bull engineer, he seemed to think it's not just aero but also linked to the suspension design where the team is gaining an advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4uY1BO0hLY
Blake has his own channel on youtube 'brrrakef1', well worth a watch if you want to get a more tech view of the F1 cars.
https://www.youtube.com/@brrrake/about
i also watched the analysis of the wing and B-wing elements and they're less dragy concept in saudi.
This car has:
Fast one lap pace
Low tyre deg
High down force
Good low corner speed
Good medium corner speed
Quickest (one of) down the straight
There's usually a smoking gun that can be pointed at and analysed or a loophole that has been exploited, but everyone knows/learns about. I'm wondering if something will come out later, or someone will let the cat out the bag.
it might not necessarily be a cheat, just the usual clever interpretation aspect or a particular device that impacts the huge advantage we are seeing now.
There's something very shady about the outfit, the way they and thier driver constantly find leniency with the FIA and it's officials with rules being reinterpreted and inconsistently applied to suit them, with other teams being treated very "differently".
Reminds me of benetton around the mid nineties or Charlie whiting holidaying in Ferrari era Ross Brawn's villa, all as thick as thieves and we'll likely never know the truth of it.
Reminds me of benetton around the mid nineties or Charlie whiting holidaying in Ferrari era Ross Brawn's villa, all as thick as thieves and we'll likely never know the truth of it.
500TORQUES said:
They were caught cheating, hence the punishment they will see this year.
Is the car legal under the technical rules, probably.
Well quite. They have a brilliant chief deisgner who has knowledge of previous ground-effect F1 cars - but they were very much caught cheating the budget in order to build the car. One could argue that the punishment was grossly insufficient, unless the other cars can catch up over the course of this season. Is the car legal under the technical rules, probably.
Monkeylegend said:
They also have Max driving the car which none of the other teams have 
That is true, but Perez has also won a race in that car this year.No offense to Perez but he's far from a top tier F1 driver. I'd put Hamilton, Russel, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz, Alonso and Bottas above him in driver quality.
He's in the Ocon/Gasly/Hulkenberg mould of being solid but far from spectacular.
PhilAsia said:
Speed Badger said:
I think most of the grid should be embarrassed an energy drinks manufacturer is smashing the world's premier motor racing series, while the likes of Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Aston Martin and McLaren are having their arses handed to them...
Why? They have secured the best personnel to unlock the performance.Its like ibis hotels all of a sudden being able to be more luxurious than Emirates Palace, Abu Dhabi.
williamp said:
Well they cheated last year with the budgets. So if you spend more on next years (ie the 2023 car), youd expect it to have an advantage. And they share a wind tunnel with Alpha Tauri, so if they had less tunnel time, their cars would be slower...
The FIA haven't signed off on any of last years budgets yet, though I'm assuming by this point they must have an idea if Red Bull breached the limits again last year by now. Most of the issue last season was it took until almost the end of it before it came to light about the spend over the 21 season... plus the fines will mainly impact on Red Bull at the end of this season going into the 24 season... so 'cheating' in 21 has given them 3 seasons of wriggle room wrt. the potential of over spend on the cars design.Ultimately, the Red Bull was only the 2nd fastest car over the 22 season, the Ferrari was the quickest, they just managed to constantly throw points down the drain with rubbish strategy after rubbish strategy. I'd argue if Mercedes hadn't moaned about flexi-floors so much then the championship race between Red Bull and Ferrari would have been much closer and a better watch.
Speed Badger said:
I think most of the grid should be embarrassed an energy drinks manufacturer is smashing the world's premier motor racing series, while the likes of Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Aston Martin and McLaren are having their arses handed to them...
You do know the mercedes, Aston etc F1 cars are not made by the respective car manufacturers, that formula 1 cars are an entirely separate operation? There isn't a production line going "b class diesel, b class diesel, b class diesel, W17 V6 hybrid, b class diesel.."What do you imagine, a red bull bottling plant conveyer belt going "red bull sugar flavour, red bull tangy flavour, checos F1 car, reb bull urine flavour,"
Might blow your mind that fashion brand benetton won some championships in their day!
GlobalRacer said:
Interesting mindset F1 fans seem to have. If a team is doing better they must be cheating. In other forms of motorsport I follow if a team is doing better the majority are generally saying it's up to the other teams to do a better job.
In all of my time watching F1, the field tend to understand pretty quickly how another competitor gets their advantage, so they start off behind the curve and eventually catch up. It rarely happens with RBR - it’s always clouded in secrecy, subterfuge and in most cases, skulduggery. It’s for this reason that RBR as a team, Newey aside, are not respected as a truly F1 force. I’d say Brawn GP has more kudos.Mercedes, Ferrari, Alpine, McLaren even are seen as engineering powerhouses. RBR despite their success in motorsport, are better known as a drinks company, daredevil sports and the likes. They’re regularly associated with cheating, bending the rules, unfair advantage, aggression, rudeness, which is good as role models go for some, not for most.
They're so far ahead of the competition without a an obvious smoking gun that it does make you wonder if they've bent the rules so far that they're now a circle.
If everything is above board then it's an incredible achievement, especially so if they've adhered to the limits on development time.
If everything is above board then it's an incredible achievement, especially so if they've adhered to the limits on development time.
Edited by ChocolateFrog on Friday 7th April 11:33
GlobalRacer said:
Interesting mindset F1 fans seem to have. If a team is doing better they must be cheating. In other forms of motorsport I follow if a team is doing better the majority are generally saying it's up to the other teams to do a better job.
There's a difference between incrementally better and leaps and bounds better.And you can further subdivide the second bit to an obvious advantage from something like the blown diffuser or DAS and Ferrari's pace advantage when they were cheating.
In light of there being nothing obvious to point at with RB there will always be speculation.
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