Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
HardtopManual said:
Not sure why Merc and Ferrari should be embarrassed at being beaten by a drinks manufacturer. They're just sources of funding. Money is money no matter what type of company it comes from.
Yeah it's not as if they have brought people in from the manufacturing plant at redbull drinks and told them to design and build an f1 car.They have people who have worked in f1 for years for all the outfits, and poached from the other big teams recently too.
500TORQUES said:
They were caught cheating, hence the punishment they will see this year.
Is the car legal under the technical rules, probably.
Well quite. The fact they were already caught cheating the resources rules, is what grates with so many people. That, and the personalities at the top of the team. Is the car legal under the technical rules, probably.
I think people forget or never knew that RB must have been on a mission to win the title 2021 at any cost. The head honcho who started it all was on his way out. Maybe there was a bit of help from the authorities . All the unbelievable bad driving that was excused speakes for itself.
Naturally they wont play this up themselves as they are an extreme youth oriented company. So to highlight mortality in the ranks doesnt play well to the image.
Since then the advantage given has snowballed a bit and superiority is locked in. Even though DM is no longer around.
Naturally they wont play this up themselves as they are an extreme youth oriented company. So to highlight mortality in the ranks doesnt play well to the image.
Since then the advantage given has snowballed a bit and superiority is locked in. Even though DM is no longer around.
Apart from money, what areas are available for a team to cheat in? I doubt, given the capability of modern cameras, they have made a leap - either legal or illegal - in the aero department. What does that leave? Are they fiddling the MCU or have they found a way to get more hp out of the engine in a way that breaks the rules? What are the current rules on fuel loads? Would they be able to either carry more fuel or have they found a way to be more economical with what they're allowed?
Chamon_Lee said:
PhilAsia said:
Speed Badger said:
I think most of the grid should be embarrassed an energy drinks manufacturer is smashing the world's premier motor racing series, while the likes of Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Aston Martin and McLaren are having their arses handed to them...
Why? They have secured the best personnel to unlock the performance.Its like ibis hotels all of a sudden being able to be more luxurious than Emirates Palace, Abu Dhabi.
pablo said:
Newey deserves a lot of credit but it takes more than one man to design a modern F1 car, there is a whole team behind him, all bright people with a very specific area of expertise, Newey is good (I can’t fault a guy who races a GT40 in his spare time) but I’m sure even he would say the whole RB engineering team deserves greater recognition.
Yes, they have a very good team, I also wonder how much they learnt doing the Valkyrie project that would then carry over to F1 at zero cost within the cap.
MustangGT said:
pablo said:
Newey deserves a lot of credit but it takes more than one man to design a modern F1 car, there is a whole team behind him, all bright people with a very specific area of expertise, Newey is good (I can’t fault a guy who races a GT40 in his spare time) but I’m sure even he would say the whole RB engineering team deserves greater recognition.
Yes, they have a very good team, I also wonder how much they learnt doing the Valkyrie project that would then carry over to F1 at zero cost within the cap.RB have other teams and projects they service/advise on and have stepped this up.
I know someone joked about the A class isn't built in the same production line, but the Mercedes engine is very much a Mercedes product. They also had the one project to share resources on.
hunter 66 said:
Can having Max as a driver be considered cheating ?
Only for the usual haters. And I hate the term haters, it’s hatefully hateful, used by haters hating for hatefully hateful reasons. But notwithstanding, haters will find something irrational to hate. It’s astonishingly naive/myopic/conveniently forgetful ( no offence other than being irrationally a hater) that no other team in the history of F1 has ever supervened in one or more consecutive seasons (do catch up). The hate for Red Bull on here is, therefore, astonishing; is it personnel related? Sure, kick Horner, but don’t kick the drivers who risk their lives week in week out for the team. Kick the Bondian villain, Helmut, if it makes you feel better about yourselves. But is anyone really going to suggest that a paltry 1.6% overspend in the first year of the Budget Cap is the reason why they are dominant this year? No, the truth is, once again Adrian and his team got their design right, as they have done in their past. How much has Merc spent on their design (I would aver hugely more than 1.6% of their overall budget just trying to rectify their approach, which they are now trying to address). They got I wrong. They got it right for so many years when they were outspending every other team.
F1 isn’t a level playing field. Whether a Knight of the Realm locks up using ‘Brake Magic’ (that no other team is using to their advantage) or he uses ‘DAS’ (which was then outlawed the next season) to his advantage, is obviously long gone in the hater’s memories.
Merc needs to catch up, pure and simple. As does Ferrari. Aston is currently showing them both the way.
Long May the realignment continue.
Diderot said:
hunter 66 said:
Can having Max as a driver be considered cheating ?
Only for the usual haters. And I hate the term haters, it’s hatefully hateful, used by haters hating for hatefully hateful reasons. But notwithstanding, haters will find something irrational to hate. It’s astonishingly naive/myopic/conveniently forgetful ( no offence other than being irrationally a hater) that no other team in the history of F1 has ever supervened in one or more consecutive seasons (do catch up). The hate for Red Bull on here is, therefore, astonishing; is it personnel related? Sure, kick Horner, but don’t kick the drivers who risk their lives week in week out for the team. Kick the Bondian villain, Helmut, if it makes you feel better about yourselves. But is anyone really going to suggest that a paltry 1.6% overspend in the first year of the Budget Cap is the reason why they are dominant this year? No, the truth is, once again Adrian and his team got their design right, as they have done in their past. How much has Merc spent on their design (I would aver hugely more than 1.6% of their overall budget just trying to rectify their approach, which they are now trying to address). They got I wrong. They got it right for so many years when they were outspending every other team.
F1 isn’t a level playing field. Whether a Knight of the Realm locks up using ‘Brake Magic’ (that no other team is using to their advantage) or he uses ‘DAS’ (which was then outlawed the next season) to his advantage, is obviously long gone in the hater’s memories.
Merc needs to catch up, pure and simple. As does Ferrari. Aston is currently showing them both the way.
Long May the realignment continue.
Yes Merc and Ferrari need to catch up but that’s like saying the cyclists chasing Lance Armstrong just needed to train harder and pedal faster. When you’re up against a team who have found a loophole, legal or undetected, exploited it and reap the rewards, you can’t just “catch up” when you are on limited reserves
I can't see any reason to believe Redbull are doing anything underhand now (obviously the cost-cap breach was a form cheating). I think they've just done a far better job of the aerodynamic design of their car within the new rules than anyone else; whether that's due to a single "golden bullet" or, I think more likely, a lot of small things we will probably never know.
Max is a very good driver but he's not significantly better than any of the other top F1 drivers (Hamilton, Russell and Alonso, to my mind). He just has a hugely fast car (and a somewhat mediocre teammate).
Max is a very good driver but he's not significantly better than any of the other top F1 drivers (Hamilton, Russell and Alonso, to my mind). He just has a hugely fast car (and a somewhat mediocre teammate).
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th April 20:34
I think what they've done a lot of smart things all over the car that have added up to their advantage they have now, it'll be trimmed back over the coming seasons & just like Mercedes did to Ferrari if they can protest any team that gets close they will do.
There was no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage, or were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
There was no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage, or were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 7th April 20:46
ZX10R NIN said:
I think what they've done a lot of smart things all over the car that have added up to their advantage they have now, it'll be trimmed back over the coming seasons & just like Mercedes did to Ferrari if they can protest any team that gets close they will do.
There's no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
There's no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
Exactly, similarly big rule change (albeit in a different area of the car); similarly big performance advantage for the team which got the new rules right. I guess the fact that Redbull did cheat in the run-up to the new regs will forever taint their achievements to a degree, but arguably unfairly; their performance advantage is orders of magnitude beyond what their overspending could account for. I personally don't think Verstappen actually won the 2021 WDC but I think Redbull have thoroughly deserved last year's and (preemptively) this year's titles. I can't stand their upper-level management, but I have enormous respect for the team as a whole.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th April 20:45
ZX10R NIN said:
I think what they've done a lot of smart things all over the car that have added up to their advantage they have now, it'll be trimmed back over the coming seasons & just like Mercedes did to Ferrari if they can protest any team that gets close they will do.
There was no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage, or were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
Yes, but everyone knew why from the outset. They used a split turbo, better packaging (size zero), basically a better engine. These were all well known about and utilised concepts by other teams.There was no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage, or were they cheating?
No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 7th April 20:46
I've heard speculation why the rebuild is fast, but nothing specific. Just guesses and speculation.
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