Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
thepawbroon said:
Megaflow said:
Interesting rumour circulating, apparently they may have been running three chamber rear dampers that delayed the return of the car to it’s original ride height using nitrogen, in a manner design to replicate the truck hydraulic suspension everyone had before 2022.
https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
Interesting..... there's seemingly a quote attributed to Stefano Domenicali along the lines of "Red Bull domination not being allowed to continue". So we know where that came from? I'd not heard anything like that before. https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
thepawbroon said:
Megaflow said:
Interesting rumour circulating, apparently they may have been running three chamber rear dampers that delayed the return of the car to it’s original ride height using nitrogen, in a manner design to replicate the truck hydraulic suspension everyone had before 2022.
https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
Interesting..... there's seemingly a quote attributed to Stefano Domenicali along the lines of "Red Bull domination not being allowed to continue". So we know where that came from? I'd not heard anything like that before. https://youtu.be/kUg7xTlNmEc
Siao said:
Apart from the obvious (that they actually were cheating and it was dealt behind closed doors), he could have meant that they need to stop RB's domination, just like they had to stop Mercedes, RB's and Ferrari's before that. It got boring after a while, especially the latest RB's domination where they broke every record they could last year. Not that RB was cheating necessarily.
He said the opposite. He expects the other teams to catch up, but it's normal for dominance at times and people should watch this legacy being built.He most certainly did not say they would do anything artificial to nobble them.
This isn’t a dig at RB but F1 in general; the lack of transparency, closed doors, secret talks, secret ‘clamp downs’ does nothing for the sport. How can anyone investing, racing or watching think they’re getting treated fairly or getting value? I thought football was shady but F1 is probably worse!
However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
732NM said:
Siao said:
Apart from the obvious (that they actually were cheating and it was dealt behind closed doors), he could have meant that they need to stop RB's domination, just like they had to stop Mercedes, RB's and Ferrari's before that. It got boring after a while, especially the latest RB's domination where they broke every record they could last year. Not that RB was cheating necessarily.
He said the opposite. He expects the other teams to catch up, but it's normal for dominance at times and people should watch this legacy being built.He most certainly did not say they would do anything artificial to nobble them.
Boom78 said:
This isn’t a dig at RB but F1 in general; the lack of transparency, closed doors, secret talks, secret ‘clamp downs’ does nothing for the sport. How can anyone investing, racing or watching think they’re getting treated fairly or getting value? I thought football was shady but F1 is probably worse!
However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
Invested on the racing side - easy to accept it when you're making a fortune from it. Which is what is happening these days for a lot of people - owners, drivers etc. However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
On the fans side a lot don't realise the issues, either not knowing or deliberately not caring because it benefits their side. Just look at AD21 as one example - for anyone used to F1 it was instantly obvious what the decision to allow a car on brand new tyres with 2 compounds softer than their opponent would result in on the last lap - it wasn't a "race to the end", it was already a certainty that the car with those tyres would pass if there was no crash. But many either accepted that as "a race" because they didn't realise that, or it benefitted their driver.
They're in a position where they have to pretend there is no messing around with results for political reasons to keep fans interested, but the media and a lot of people involved in F1 will continue this because it makes them money, even if they lose out on results. It looks like it's now perhaps happening with McLaren where the flexi wing is not having a change in the tests, because it makes it a more fun fight to the end of the season.
Boom78 said:
This isn’t a dig at RB but F1 in general; the lack of transparency, closed doors, secret talks, secret ‘clamp downs’ does nothing for the sport. How can anyone investing, racing or watching think they’re getting treated fairly or getting value? I thought football was shady but F1 is probably worse!
However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
It was the same with Ferrari back in 2018. However, on the flip side, this season has almost stoked my fire for F1, more winners, more competition etc.
When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Much better to just be honest, and say that a line was breached, but everyone appears to be scared witless to do as they used to and talk about these things openly. I guess it’s to do with Liberty, and lawyers.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 19th September 13:45
Jasandjules said:
Muzzer79 said:
We can't definitively say anything without some actual evidence or a confession.
We can only answer the question posed in the header as
"Maybe"
More likely than not. Whilst it is all circumstantial, it all is too difficult to suggest it is just a coincidence.We can only answer the question posed in the header as
"Maybe"
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
Sandpit Steve said:
It was the same with Ferrari back in 2018.
When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Ferrari's temporary speed increase actually made 2018 a bit more interesting, for a short while at least.When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 19th September 13:45
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
Nobody can say for sure that they have taken something off the car but it is obvious something has changed, from how it was at the start of the season to now is worlds apart also RB seem lost with how to fix it, different floors then mix and match floors.
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
WPA said:
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
They're probably fine but the supply of lobster to the catering unit has dried up.In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
WPA said:
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
Nobody can say for sure that they have taken something off the car but it is obvious something has changed, from how it was at the start of the season to now is worlds apart also RB seem lost with how to fix it, different floors then mix and match floors.
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
Just like the Ferrari engine.
My biggest gripe is the lack of outcry re last 2 yrs of domination/titles with the car that has now been shorn of it's "magic" bits.
Anyway, I cancelled my Nowtv after 1st 3 races this year but I'm back on it now given the decent offer and better racing
lambosagogo said:
In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
There's a before/after animation in the specific thread regarding "mini DRS" that compares McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari rear wings both unloaded and at speed but DRS not deployed and, if anything, at speed the gap between the closed DRS flap and the main wing element is biggest on the Ferrari!What alerted people to the McLaren wing deflection is that the ends of the DRS flap appear to be curling upwards as they are not aligning with the rest of the wing under load, but I am inclined to think that if anything McLaren are seeking to be more in compliance with the static tests by making a flap that has uniform strength along its entire length. The Ferrari and RB flaps appear to bow up in the middle, but all three are deflecting and the Ferrari significantly moreso.
Edited by Evercross on Thursday 19th September 15:32
WPA said:
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
But I don't think it's as simple as just taking updated parts off. If it were the case, then Ferrari would just revert to their Monaco specification and win this weekend, right?
Or Mercedes would revert to their British/Belgian GP spec and win each race, correct?
I think a 'good' car is a bit of a tightrope. RBR have maybe walked it very well, partly through understanding the ground effect better than others and partly because others got it quite wrong.
They could have been cheating; I'm not ruling it out, but I'm not seeing a smoking gun.
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