Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
Sandpit Steve said:
It was the same with Ferrari back in 2018.
When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Ferrari's temporary speed increase actually made 2018 a bit more interesting, for a short while at least.When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 19th September 13:45
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
Nobody can say for sure that they have taken something off the car but it is obvious something has changed, from how it was at the start of the season to now is worlds apart also RB seem lost with how to fix it, different floors then mix and match floors.
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
WPA said:
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
They're probably fine but the supply of lobster to the catering unit has dried up.In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
WPA said:
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
Nobody can say for sure that they have taken something off the car but it is obvious something has changed, from how it was at the start of the season to now is worlds apart also RB seem lost with how to fix it, different floors then mix and match floors.
Surely they must be sailing close to the wind now with the budget cap with the amount of new parts being thrown at the car.
Just like the Ferrari engine.
My biggest gripe is the lack of outcry re last 2 yrs of domination/titles with the car that has now been shorn of it's "magic" bits.
Anyway, I cancelled my Nowtv after 1st 3 races this year but I'm back on it now given the decent offer and better racing
lambosagogo said:
In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
There's a before/after animation in the specific thread regarding "mini DRS" that compares McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari rear wings both unloaded and at speed but DRS not deployed and, if anything, at speed the gap between the closed DRS flap and the main wing element is biggest on the Ferrari!What alerted people to the McLaren wing deflection is that the ends of the DRS flap appear to be curling upwards as they are not aligning with the rest of the wing under load, but I am inclined to think that if anything McLaren are seeking to be more in compliance with the static tests by making a flap that has uniform strength along its entire length. The Ferrari and RB flaps appear to bow up in the middle, but all three are deflecting and the Ferrari significantly moreso.
Edited by Evercross on Thursday 19th September 15:32
WPA said:
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
I still cannot see how they have been wrong footed with an update, surely you would just take the updated parts off and start again.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
But I don't think it's as simple as just taking updated parts off. If it were the case, then Ferrari would just revert to their Monaco specification and win this weekend, right?
Or Mercedes would revert to their British/Belgian GP spec and win each race, correct?
I think a 'good' car is a bit of a tightrope. RBR have maybe walked it very well, partly through understanding the ground effect better than others and partly because others got it quite wrong.
They could have been cheating; I'm not ruling it out, but I'm not seeing a smoking gun.
Those cars have been good in specific circumstances. The RB was crazy good everywhere relatively, and then suddenly mostly nowhere. That’s why it’s unusual, it wasn’t a one trick pony that was amazing on the straights or great in slow speed corners. It went from general great design to poop very quickly.
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
It was the same with Ferrari back in 2018.
When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Ferrari's temporary speed increase actually made 2018 a bit more interesting, for a short while at least.When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 19th September 13:45
lambosagogo said:
They're probably fine but the supply of lobster to the catering unit has dried up.
In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
They can't just go changing the rules willy-nilly. They need to determine what is happening and how it is happening. Then they need to come up with a method of testing for it so that they can then write a rule to stop it from happening.In all seriousness, I am a little perplexed by the McLaren wing flex being deemed legal as opposed to the tests being changed to close a hole (as it were). Having the wing blow open at speed feels sketchy to me in terns of legality and, again, I am wondering if it is "The Show" that is influencing these calls.
Even when they get to that stage they need to determine if it's covered by an existing rule, in which case they can introduce the new test immediately under a technical directive. But if it's not something that is currently in the rules at all then they can't introduce a new rule until next year unless it's for safety reasons.
As the FIA have said it's legal under the current rules we just have to wait for them figure out how they can stop it with a definitive test, which will likely be next year now.
Bright Halo said:
Conspiracy theory!
The special bits/sauce was only fitted to MV's car.
Now it has been removed the performance dif between MV and Perez has evaporated.
Perez knew of this, that is why the team kept him on.
Why on earth would they want to hobble one car and cost WCC points?The special bits/sauce was only fitted to MV's car.
Now it has been removed the performance dif between MV and Perez has evaporated.
Perez knew of this, that is why the team kept him on.
vaud said:
Bright Halo said:
Conspiracy theory!
The special bits/sauce was only fitted to MV's car.
Now it has been removed the performance dif between MV and Perez has evaporated.
Perez knew of this, that is why the team kept him on.
Why on earth would they want to hobble one car and cost WCC points?The special bits/sauce was only fitted to MV's car.
Now it has been removed the performance dif between MV and Perez has evaporated.
Perez knew of this, that is why the team kept him on.
Siao said:
Bo_apex said:
Sandpit Steve said:
It was the same with Ferrari back in 2018.
When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Ferrari's temporary speed increase actually made 2018 a bit more interesting, for a short while at least.When a car goes from being on rails to being a (relative) dog, or clearly has dozens of extra horsepower for a few races which then suddenly disappear, it creates a bad atmosphere for the fans.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 19th September 13:45
Tomm3 said:
I'm still bewildered at anyone not seeing it for what it is. They've gone from streets ahead to almost midfield overnight,
They haven't dropped to midfield though. At the last race, Perez was running immediately behind the leaders before Leclerc's tyres dropped off and he collided with Sainz. If Norris hadn't held up Perez when Piastri pitted then he may have won.Bo_apex said:
Totally agree. If only the FIA had intervened during the Mercedes dominance era.
On what grounds? Mercedes weren't systematically cheating. You can't tell them to stop doing something if they're doing nothing wrong, just doing the right things better than anyone else. There were instances where Mercedes pushed loopholes too far and got reigned back in, exactly as happens with every team from time to time, but no outright cheating (that we know of).What the FIA also did was introduce two major conceptual rules changes during that period in an effort to shake up the order. The first one in 2017 was expected to impact Mercedes more than the others, until it turned out that it didn't. The second one planned for 2021, delayed until 2022, put us where we are now.
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
But I think it makes it more likely than not.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
IF it was just a development issue, they would revert.
Whilst cars do struggle when Merc were dominating they did not have these issues, they won most races. Nor did Red Bull in the previous two years, they pretty much won everything (except for Singapore famously last year). And at the start of the year, who won the races? BUT suddenly they are all over the place, not dominating by a second a lap, not winning everything at a canter. Not winning full stop.
Look at the onboards over the last two years where Max could place the car, plant the throttle and away it would go. It was quite sublime and damn near like a Lotus Elise it was on rails. Now look at the inputs, all over the place and the car is not settling before he plants the pedal or even afterwards. Has to wait now too before the nose bites whereas previously he was already on the throttle and she just launched into the horizon (like I say, Elise like)...
That is simply too great a differential even in this season for it to be a coincidence or issue with an update.
thegreenhell said:
Bo_apex said:
Totally agree. If only the FIA had intervened during the Mercedes dominance era.
On what grounds? Mercedes weren't systematically cheating. You can't tell them to stop doing something if they're doing nothing wrong, just doing the right things better than anyone else. There were instances where Mercedes pushed loopholes too far and got reigned back in, exactly as happens with every team from time to time, but no outright cheating (that we know of).What the FIA also did was introduce two major conceptual rules changes during that period in an effort to shake up the order. The first one in 2017 was expected to impact Mercedes more than the others, until it turned out that it didn't. The second one planned for 2021, delayed until 2022, put us where we are now.
Jasandjules said:
Muzzer79 said:
The timing doesn't look good for them but that doesn't mean they're definitively cheating.....
There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
But I think it makes it more likely than not.There's a plausible scenario where they've run a highly innovative car and just lost their way in development.
This era of F1 car is nothing if not highly fickle - look at the struggle Mercedes have, with a winning car one week and a mid-points scorer the next.
Same with Ferrari, to a lesser or greater degree.
It seems that one wrong development turn can be highly problematic - it's not unfeasible that this has happened to RBR.
IF it was just a development issue, they would revert.
Whilst cars do struggle when Merc were dominating they did not have these issues, they won most races. Nor did Red Bull in the previous two years, they pretty much won everything (except for Singapore famously last year). And at the start of the year, who won the races? BUT suddenly they are all over the place, not dominating by a second a lap, not winning everything at a canter. Not winning full stop.
Look at the onboards over the last two years where Max could place the car, plant the throttle and away it would go. It was quite sublime and damn near like a Lotus Elise it was on rails. Now look at the inputs, all over the place and the car is not settling before he plants the pedal or even afterwards. Has to wait now too before the nose bites whereas previously he was already on the throttle and she just launched into the horizon (like I say, Elise like)...
That is simply too great a differential even in this season for it to be a coincidence or issue with an update.
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