Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
MarkwG said:
PlywoodPascal said:
And it is not true that they didn't try to allow other teams to catch up faster, there were rule changes to benefit slower constructors or remove or limit perceived advantages of Mercedes all the way through their period of domination. I guess your 'sure' is an acknowledgement of your initial statement being mistaken and/or untrue.
So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
Oh look at you, with your logic, evidence & facts - we'll have none of that here, thank you very much! So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Saturday 21st September 13:14
Hack up his posts for the 2024 season, to bring him into line...!
PlywoodPascal said:
And it is not true that they didn't try to allow other teams to catch up faster, there were rule changes to benefit slower constructors or remove or limit perceived advantages of Mercedes all the way through their period of domination. I guess your 'sure' is an acknowledgement of your initial statement being mistaken and/or untrue.
So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
"Ineffective" is just as limp wristed as "not trying".So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Saturday 21st September 13:14
It's known that Todt was cosy with Mercedes (still resentful towards Ferrari for sacking him) and JT was ineffective as gamekeeper.
Compared to the Mercedes era this current FIA has been pretty quick in stopping RB dominance and audience numbers are up as a direct result.
Long may the unpredictability continue
Bo_apex said:
PlywoodPascal said:
And it is not true that they didn't try to allow other teams to catch up faster, there were rule changes to benefit slower constructors or remove or limit perceived advantages of Mercedes all the way through their period of domination. I guess your 'sure' is an acknowledgement of your initial statement being mistaken and/or untrue.
So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
"Ineffective" is just as limp wristed as "not trying".So far you have:
- said FIA didn't try to hobble mercedes
- posted an irrelevant article from before the 2014 season even started (i.e. before Mercedes won anything at all) to try to show that rules to allow in season development were not made after Mercedes proved to be dominant.
- admitted that rules were changed by FIA to try to allow other competitors to compete better
- then shifted your point to accept the changes to rules were made but then argue that they didn't help competitors.
The only conclusion I can make is you're arguing from a position of ideology, without any reference at all to the evidence and history here.
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Saturday 21st September 13:14
It's known that Todt was cosy with Mercedes (still resentful towards Ferrari for sacking him) and JT was ineffective as gamekeeper.
Compared to the Mercedes era this current FIA has been pretty quick in stopping RB dominance and audience numbers are up as a direct result.
Long may the unpredictability continue
Bo_apex said:
"Ineffective" is just as limp wristed as "not trying".
It's known that Todt was cosy with Mercedes (still resentful towards Ferrari for sacking him) and JT was ineffective as gamekeeper.
Compared to the Mercedes era this current FIA has been pretty quick in stopping RB dominance and audience numbers are up as a direct result.
Long may the unpredictability continue
Since when does preventing continued use of an illegal device = being quick in stopping RBR dominance?It's known that Todt was cosy with Mercedes (still resentful towards Ferrari for sacking him) and JT was ineffective as gamekeeper.
Compared to the Mercedes era this current FIA has been pretty quick in stopping RB dominance and audience numbers are up as a direct result.
Long may the unpredictability continue
deadslow said:
MustangGT said:
Since when does preventing continued use of an illegal device = being quick in stopping RBR dominance?
to which illegal device do you refer?Mercedes were co-authors of the 2014 PU format and didn't need to get creative, they already had an unfair baked in advantage.
"Mercedes were already working on their hybrid engine since 2007 and that's why they so adamant during the negotiations to introduce V6 engines from 2014."
https://gptoday.com/details/view/593536/Montezemol...
Good for Mercedes - bad for F1. The Tokens Schmokens system was designed to fail. And it did.
deadslow said:
PlywoodPascal said:
the dodgy suspension they were using.
were they, though? The only thing removed from any car so far as I am aware is the McLaren dodgy 'mini-drs'.McLaren's 'mini-drs' was not illegal, and McLaren have volunteered not to use it again (only one race it would be useful anyway). The clever brakes have always been illegal.
MustangGT said:
deadslow said:
PlywoodPascal said:
the dodgy suspension they were using.
were they, though? The only thing removed from any car so far as I am aware is the McLaren dodgy 'mini-drs'.McLaren's 'mini-drs' was not illegal, and McLaren have volunteered not to use it again (only one race it would be useful anyway). The clever brakes have always been illegal.
I find it hilarious how SkyF1 skirt around the 'sudden' lack of Red Bull performance, or even how it no longer appears to handle the same. I assume they don't want to upset RB, or the FIA. I don't watch other channels / sources, I can't imagine F1TV do either, what about C4 or other channels less concerned about upsetting the apple cart?
MustangGT said:
deadslow said:
PlywoodPascal said:
the dodgy suspension they were using.
were they, though? The only thing removed from any car so far as I am aware is the McLaren dodgy 'mini-drs'.McLaren's 'mini-drs' was not illegal, and McLaren have volunteered not to use it again (only one race it would be useful anyway). The clever brakes have always been illegal.
In his long interview with Jake Humphries, Newey seemed to suggest Merc won the 2021 WCC with an illegal car. And he knows his stuff. What's your thoughts?
It's always nice to discuss these things, but it would be foolish to assume we know anything. These guys are the smartest of smart, and know the reality of the situation. We would be better off trusting that if there is something strange going on, it is simply strange because we don't know the full picture.
But of course, the world no longer works that way, sadly.
It may be something as simple as Red Bull have made an internal decision to prioritise developing a car to suit the coming new regulations and have slowed development on this years car at the same time as other teams doubled down and invested.
All other decisions made by RB show that they don't particularly seem to be fighting as hard as in previous years for perceived wrong decisions during races, tolerating the mediocrity of Perez, etc. Maybe they simply expected to struggle in the later stages of the championship. Max himself still most likely will win the DC.
The only thing I really care about is that F1 is exciting and unpredictable again. And I'm very grateful for that!
But of course, the world no longer works that way, sadly.
It may be something as simple as Red Bull have made an internal decision to prioritise developing a car to suit the coming new regulations and have slowed development on this years car at the same time as other teams doubled down and invested.
All other decisions made by RB show that they don't particularly seem to be fighting as hard as in previous years for perceived wrong decisions during races, tolerating the mediocrity of Perez, etc. Maybe they simply expected to struggle in the later stages of the championship. Max himself still most likely will win the DC.
The only thing I really care about is that F1 is exciting and unpredictable again. And I'm very grateful for that!
deadslow said:
ah, so you don't actually know what may have been removed from the RedBull, if anything at all.
If you think it coincidence that immediately after the FIA missive the RBR is suddenly nowhere, and have not won a race since, I suggest you give your head a wibble.What about the FIA/Ferrari deal around the engine fuelling. Nothing has been published, no results were altered, yet everybody knows what happened, is it your view that nothing was proven so it may not have happened?
deadslow said:
In his long interview with Jake Humphries, Newey seemed to suggest Merc won the 2021 WCC with an illegal car. And he knows his stuff. What's your thoughts?
Not seen the interview, so cannot comment on a specific statement, however, given the number of times the MB was subject to close scrutiny during the year I doubt there was anything illegal about it.It is also a fact that the 2021 RBR was developed by use of an illegal overspend. I find it comical that anybody from RBR would dare to suggest another car was illegal.
If the FIA had the will, they could have DQ'd the RBR from the championship, or even a single race, but we know they do everything possible to avoid righting wrongs or correcting awards after the event.
MustangGT said:
deadslow said:
ah, so you don't actually know what may have been removed from the RedBull, if anything at all.
If you think it coincidence that immediately after the FIA missive the RBR is suddenly nowhere, and have not won a race since, I suggest you give your head a wibble.What about the FIA/Ferrari deal around the engine fuelling. Nothing has been published, no results were altered, yet everybody knows what happened, is it your view that nothing was proven so it may not have happened?
deadslow said:
In his long interview with Jake Humphries, Newey seemed to suggest Merc won the 2021 WCC with an illegal car. And he knows his stuff. What's your thoughts?
Not seen the interview, so cannot comment on a specific statement, however, given the number of times the MB was subject to close scrutiny during the year I doubt there was anything illegal about it.It is also a fact that the 2021 RBR was developed by use of an illegal overspend. I find it comical that anybody from RBR would dare to suggest another car was illegal.
If the FIA had the will, they could have DQ'd the RBR from the championship, or even a single race, but we know they do everything possible to avoid righting wrongs or correcting awards after the event.
So Whatabout only MB powered safety cars supplied for so many years ?
What about the tender process for this contract ?
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article/timelin...
All seems nice & cosy
MustangGT said:
deadslow said:
ah, so you don't actually know what may have been removed from the RedBull, if anything at all.
If you think it coincidence that immediately after the FIA missive the RBR is suddenly nowhere, and have not won a race since, I suggest you give your head a wibble.Perhaps we should therefore be looking at McLaren more than Red Bull…….
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