Official 2024 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[Wills2]

Leithen said:

Wills2 said:

Many people on this thread are invested in the outcome rather than the process, they seem to want a Norris win at the expense of an exciting race, Monday morning quarterbacks keen to tell you how Zak should be running his team and blaming Oscar for losing the win for Mclaren, which is nonsense.

Oscar did himself no harm in the paddock on Sunday in fact his stock has no doubt gone up a notch, had Alonso, Max or Lewis done that move it would have been hailed as a master stroke.

If Piastri had won, it might have been seen as a masterstroke and his stock might have risen, but he didn't. Ultimately all F1 really cares about is winning. By pulling his move he forced Norris to be slow out of the second chicane and bang, Leclerc is past and the rest is history.

Brown has form wheeling and dealing with too many drivers for too few seats. Time to remind Webber of this. If they miss out on either or both championships, it will be down to Brown to figure out when he should have made sure the team came first.

First and foremost it's about beating your team mate (that's the win you can control) Ferrari's move came as a surprise to the whole circus no one fore saw it until the last moment (so you're using hindsight but pretending it was obvious when it was anything but)

This isn't Ocon vs Gasley or Perez, they are not punting each other off what we saw was clean pass and it was great to watch, the WCC is a 3 way battle the WDC well unless RB really fall apart is still for Max to lose.

Brown's never been in such a great position I doubt he's too unhappy or in a rush to lay down the law to Webber.

[NRS]

maz8062 said:

vaud said:

thiscocks said:

It's not crazy at all. Mclaren (and WIlliams) have a history of letting their drivers get on with it and long may it continue. Some fans prefer watching a good race instead of obsessing over the WDC and beating Max.

100%

I'm loving watching each race. I haven't followed a single driver/team for some years and enjoy the sport a lot more while avoiding tribalism. The current crop of drivers is outstanding, possibly one of the strongest fields ever (from front to back)

I’m sorry but it shows a lack of intelligence to allow your drivers to squabble amongst themselves chasing down a WDC target, their first for 16 years, when faced with a competitor with a huge lead that has his whole team focused on him and is experiencing a sudden drop off in performance. No one individual/s is bigger than the team so they’ve all got to pull together for McLaren the team.

If OP was in Lando’s points position I’d be saying the same. Personalities are not important, the team is.

It's also not fully true that people just watch the racing as such. If championships don't matter then the fight for 9th and 10th places in the WCC would be just as important and fun, because it's all about what the cars do in each race, not where teams finish. The reason McLaren is getting focus is because they are in with a chance at WCC and possibly the WDC. As a team if they don't bother with trying to get a WDC it'd be pointless to work for them if you care about winning, as it shows they are not priotising that. You'll get worse people working for you and so on.

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Some fans will not care about the WDC/WCC placing, but as a team if you don't care about that you're just making up numbers and won't be very successful.

[isaldiri]

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

[Leithen]

Wills2 said:

First and foremost it's about beating your team mate (that's the win you can control) Ferrari's move came as a surprise to the whole circus no one fore saw it until the last moment (so you're using hindsight but pretending it was obvious when it was anything but)

This isn't Ocon vs Gasley or Perez, they are not punting each other off what we saw was clean pass and it was great to watch, the WCC is a 3 way battle the WDC well unless RB really fall apart is still for Max to lose.

Brown's never been in such a great position I doubt he's too unhappy or in a rush to lay down the law to Webber.

If McLaren had completed the first lap in first and second place, they would have been able to either cover a one stop strategy or be within overtaking range of Leclerc well before the last lap. They had that opportunity and squandered it.

Norris and Piastri are not Ocon/Gasly because Norris is using his head. He could easily have extended his braking distance into the second chicane and blocked his teammate, but he understood that he couldn't afford a DNF. Piastri took advantage of that. Great racing, awful team strategy.

If Brown ends the season having missed either or both of the championships by a few points he'll have every reason to be unhappy, as will his Bahrain shareholders.

[maz8062]

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

It’s not suboptimal - OP is over 100 points behind Max and trails his team mate in all the metrics that count. He’ll only be acting as a thorn in the side of Lando and costing the team a potential WDC, WCC even, if both drivers start driving for themselves rather than the team.

OP has had the whole season to have his chance. He’s been found wanting just like he was last season. Lando is the faster driver today, maybe OP’s time will come next season, but now is not the time to try and play catch up when there’s bigger fish to fry.

This is not rocket science - it’s elementary stuff in today’s F1 where team orders are permitted.

[Likes Fast Cars]

vaud said:

100%

I'm loving watching each race. I haven't followed a single driver/team for some years and enjoy the sport a lot more while avoiding tribalism. The current crop of drivers is outstanding, possibly one of the strongest fields ever (from front to back)

…and some are outstanding for all the wrong reasons: Stroll, Zhou, …

[asfault]

Likes Fast Cars said:

vaud said:

100%

I'm loving watching each race. I haven't followed a single driver/team for some years and enjoy the sport a lot more while avoiding tribalism. The current crop of drivers is outstanding, possibly one of the strongest fields ever (from front to back)

…and some are outstanding for all the wrong reasons: Stroll, Zhou, …

I've never rated zhou. He got in for the chinese market and has has his chance but csnt even beat a depleted bottas.

As for stroll obviously bought his way in but there was a period when he was a genuine mid level driver almost a decent journeyman. But he's dropped right off ironically starting when aston had a great car in the start of 2023

[NRS]

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

You only get a few chances to win a WDC. Unless you're in a dominant team you're very unlikely to be able to come back and get on top if you've been that unlucky to be behind your team mate. Particularly when the driver knows they are against a driver/team who put all their eggs in one basket.

It's different from just competing. You get very few chances to win a WDC. It's down to the few times you have a car that is good enough.
- If it is really dominant (Merc) then you are in a straight fight with your team mate, doesn't matter about orders.
- If you are the better driver in your team then it makes sense to have the whole team behind you. You'll have the confidence you're good enough. You 100% want the team to use orders then, as it will help you the most. Particularly if against a team doing the same (RB).
- If you've been unlucky enough to be far enough behind your team mate due to luck/ not being good enough you're unlikely to beat another rival that is close who does only support 1 driver, so you might catch up in the battle with your team mate, but still not win. So still no WDC.

I'd 100% pick the team orders, as the risk/reward is much better to winning a WDC in the few seasons over your career you might have a car good enough. The only time it helps is if you are the better driver in a team who has been unlucky, and in that case your chance of winning is already heavily skewed towards not getting it due to bad luck.

[Likes Fast Cars]

maz8062 said:

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

It’s not suboptimal - OP is over 100 points behind Max and trails his team mate in all the metrics that count. He’ll only be acting as a thorn in the side of Lando and costing the team a potential WDC, WCC even, if both drivers start driving for themselves rather than the team.

OP has had the whole season to have his chance. He’s been found wanting just like he was last season. Lando is the faster driver today, maybe OP’s time will come next season, but now is not the time to try and play catch up when there’s bigger fish to fry.

This is not rocket science - it’s elementary stuff in today’s F1 where team orders are permitted.

And Oscar has been badly let down by some Ferrari-esque bad strategy calls this season too.

[isaldiri]

NRS said:

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

You only get a few chances to win a WDC. Unless you're in a dominant team you're very unlikely to be able to come back and get on top if you've been that unlucky to be behind your team mate. Particularly when the driver knows they are against a driver/team who put all their eggs in one basket.

It's different from just competing. You get very few chances to win a WDC. It's down to the few times you have a car that is good enough.
- If it is really dominant (Merc) then you are in a straight fight with your team mate, doesn't matter about orders.
- If you are the better driver in your team then it makes sense to have the whole team behind you. You'll have the confidence you're good enough. You 100% want the team to use orders then, as it will help you the most. Particularly if against a team doing the same (RB).
- If you've been unlucky enough to be far enough behind your team mate due to luck/ not being good enough you're unlikely to beat another rival that is close who does only support 1 driver, so you might catch up in the battle with your team mate, but still not win. So still no WDC.

I'd 100% pick the team orders, as the risk/reward is much better to winning a WDC in the few seasons over your career you might have a car good enough. The only time it helps is if you are the better driver in a team who has been unlucky, and in that case your chance of winning is already heavily skewed towards not getting it due to bad luck.

Define 'far enough behind your team-mate' and at what stage of the season. It's clearly very possible for evenly matched team-mates to close a 20-30 point gap midseason.

When would you have team orders implemented to help the driver in front then? after 10 races or before? how much of a differential does there need to be before you do so? Piastri had his highest gap to Norris after Barcelona (and just before he seemed to get things sorted and have an uptick in performance relative to Norris). Should he have been ordered to just tag along behind Norris at every race afterwards rather than to have done his best to try to close that gap to his team-mate?

Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 4th September 10:48

[asfault]

My team orders.
Quali you are fighting for the preferred strategy in the race.
Qualify 1 and 2 then 2 does not overtake 1 unless a complete fluff of the start otherwise they help defend for 2 laps and pull away together.
If both clearly faster than the others at this point free to race until the last pit stop is complete then its formation flying.

[Hustle_]

KobayashiMaru86 said:

Realistically, Max still needs a DNF or a few 9th and 10ths to open this right up.

I think that people believe he's going to need to take another engine penalty somewhere. If that's the case we can probably expect it at Baku? The car hasn't been great at Singapore in recent years. If they can't get some turn-in in the car they could be in for a pretty horrid time at some of the upcoming circuits- COTA, Mexico, Qatar... During the remainder of the season we'll find out if they're suffering a temporary blip because they've lost their braking toys, or whether they've run out of development headroom / budget / WT hours... of if they've actually lost their way a bit.

[MustangGT]

thiscocks said:

MustangGT said:

TheDeuce said:

Well, neither of us know the extent to which Piastri was trying because he was most likely waiting for the expected switch to occur.

It doesn't matter anyway, nor does it matter who deserved to win in this context - for the record I think Lando could have won fair and square, if he had handed the place back, putting him back in his original position, and then continued to race fairly.

Why didn't he do that? Why did he need to act unfairly ahead of 'proving how fast he was'?

What exactly was Lando's justification for not immediately handing the place back?

All of which is actually irrelevant although correct in moral terms. Team orders are allowed in F1, regardless of our thoughts on this. The only driver in with a chance to beat Max is Lando. Therefore to maximise the chance of the WDC Oscar should be playing the rear gunner role in order to maximise the chances of the team winning both championships.

Oscar cost the team at Monza, no doubt about it. They could have run 1-2 and pulled away from Charles. The cost to the WDC was a reduction of 10 points against Max, the WCC also 10 points. Absolutely crazy.

It's not crazy at all. Mclaren (and WIlliams) have a history of letting their drivers get on with it and long may it continue. Some fans prefer watching a good race instead of obsessing over the WDC and beating Max.

I prefer watching a good race too, however, that spectacle has long gone. It is a team game with team orders permitted. McLaren were simply dozing on the long game strategy. What team would NOT want to win the WDC if it could?

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

Hustle_ said:

KobayashiMaru86 said:

Realistically, Max still needs a DNF or a few 9th and 10ths to open this right up.

I think that people believe he's going to need to take another engine penalty somewhere. If that's the case we can probably expect it at Baku? The car hasn't been great at Singapore in recent years. If they can't get some turn-in in the car they could be in for a pretty horrid time at some of the upcoming circuits- COTA, Mexico, Qatar... During the remainder of the season we'll find out if they're suffering a temporary blip because they've lost their braking toys, or whether they've run out of development headroom / budget / WT hours... of if they've actually lost their way a bit.

I think it is unlikely that Max will lose the drivers championship but a bit of bad luck and it might be closer than Red Bull would like. I wonder what Max would do if it comes down to the last race and Lando is trying to over take for the win?

Red Bull have lost the manufacturers championship and it is all Perez fault. Bet the team are not very happy they won't make bonus this year!

[deadslow]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

.................. I wonder what Max would do if it comes down to the last race and Lando is trying to over take for the win?...................

Max wont be bothered in the slightest because he knows Oscar will dive past Lando and the pair will squabble to the end.

[PhilAsia]

Wills2 said:

>snip< Ferrari's move came as a surprise to the whole circus no one fore saw it until the last moment (so you're using hindsight but pretending it was obvious when it was anything but)>snip<

It may have come as a surprise. Piastri and Norris were leaning on the tyres lap after lap. Monza is historically a one stop. Russell's one stopper is fresh in the mind. Charles had every opportunity to watch the McLarens burn through a set and protect his front left on the few corners that make up Monza.

I think McLaren were sleeping. Surprise!

[Gary C]

Leithen said:

Great racing, awful team strategy.

I think that sums it up very well.

[wevster]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

I think it is unlikely that Max will lose the drivers championship but a bit of bad luck and it might be closer than Red Bull would like. I wonder what Max would do if it comes down to the last race and Lando is trying to over take for the win?

Red Bull have lost the manufacturers championship and it is all Perez fault. Bet the team are not very happy they won't make bonus this year!

It’s not all Perez’s fault, he has been sacrificed many times to help Max. He always gets the worst possible strategy to benefit Max.

[nordboy]

wevster said:

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

I think it is unlikely that Max will lose the drivers championship but a bit of bad luck and it might be closer than Red Bull would like. I wonder what Max would do if it comes down to the last race and Lando is trying to over take for the win?

Red Bull have lost the manufacturers championship and it is all Perez fault. Bet the team are not very happy they won't make bonus this year!

It’s not all Perez’s fault, he has been sacrificed many times to help Max. He always gets the worst possible strategy to benefit Max.

Quite a few of the races, his strategies are poor because they have to try something different due to him qualifying so badly. Because of that, he's also not in a good position to help Max, so he will obviously get sacrificed. Mostly self inflicted imo.

[AceRockatansky]

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

isaldiri said:

NRS said:

Some fans may not care, but I'd hazard a guess most of the team would car, and as I said even if Piastri turns into a better driver it's worse to be in a team with no orders, as he may well lose his own WDC's if he loses points to his teammate. It's also likely to result in crashes and lose more points for the team too. Not an issue if you have Merc dominance, but a disaster in a tight season.

Well, a driver might also think if he's going to be stuck with team orders by mid season if he's fallen behind due to poor reliability or bad luck and not allowed to have any chance to claw back that advantage to get back on top when he very well thinks he can do so, that's rather suboptimal as well.......

You only get a few chances to win a WDC. Unless you're in a dominant team you're very unlikely to be able to come back and get on top if you've been that unlucky to be behind your team mate. Particularly when the driver knows they are against a driver/team who put all their eggs in one basket.

It's different from just competing. You get very few chances to win a WDC. It's down to the few times you have a car that is good enough.
- If it is really dominant (Merc) then you are in a straight fight with your team mate, doesn't matter about orders.
- If you are the better driver in your team then it makes sense to have the whole team behind you. You'll have the confidence you're good enough. You 100% want the team to use orders then, as it will help you the most. Particularly if against a team doing the same (RB).
- If you've been unlucky enough to be far enough behind your team mate due to luck/ not being good enough you're unlikely to beat another rival that is close who does only support 1 driver, so you might catch up in the battle with your team mate, but still not win. So still no WDC.

I'd 100% pick the team orders, as the risk/reward is much better to winning a WDC in the few seasons over your career you might have a car good enough. The only time it helps is if you are the better driver in a team who has been unlucky, and in that case your chance of winning is already heavily skewed towards not getting it due to bad luck.

Define 'far enough behind your team-mate' and at what stage of the season. It's clearly very possible for evenly matched team-mates to close a 20-30 point gap midseason.

When would you have team orders implemented to help the driver in front then? after 10 races or before? how much of a differential does there need to be before you do so? Piastri had his highest gap to Norris after Barcelona (and just before he seemed to get things sorted and have an uptick in performance relative to Norris). Should he have been ordered to just tag along behind Norris at every race afterwards rather than to have done his best to try to close that gap to his team-mate?

Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 4th September 10:48

You have made no allowance for a driver fighting for a Chance at a WDC.

History doesn't remember 2nd place. The team should be optimising everything for the championship that matters with the only driver that has a chance to win it.

It's not just about retaining Oscar, it's also about retaining Lando.

I remember Ferrari putting Schumacher 2nd when he couldn't win a championship and he was willing to play a supporting role when called upon.