Red Bull deliberately under-performing?

Red Bull deliberately under-performing?

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OnDaysLikeThese

Original Poster:

70 posts

17 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Is it possible that Red Bull are keeping Perez in order to keep them artificially low in the WCC and thus secure more development time? Particularly with the upcoming regs change.

I don’t think they urgently need the money that comes from a higher place.

Probably rather tin foil hat-ish, but am I so mad?

Maybe it’s not a deliberate strategy, but a side effect of keeping him that they’re not so sad about?

After all, I think people remember who won the WDC (and thus the team they drove for) more than they do the constructors’.

I have taken my meds this morning!

Edited by OnDaysLikeThese on Tuesday 26th November 11:59

EmailAddress

13,699 posts

226 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Absolutely.

Next.

WPA

10,283 posts

122 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
As I understand it the entrance fee that teams pay is based on success so keep Perez and finish lower, seems a sound plan.

Shelsleyf2

422 posts

240 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
There have been stories re employee bonuses not being paid as the team failed to hit the target. The bonuses are a large percentage of salary, even if Horner wants to keep Perez , most of tge workforce would likevto see him replaced. A kit kat each at Christmas is a poor substitute.


EmailAddress

13,699 posts

226 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Shelsleyf2 said:
There have been stories re employee bonuses not being paid as the team failed to hit the target. The bonuses are a large percentage of salary, even if Horner wants to keep Perez , most of tge workforce would likevto see him replaced. A kit kat each at Christmas is a poor substitute.
Red Bull literally pay in Red Bull.

We used to get crates of the stuff.

Nobody ever wanted it.

Rebew

194 posts

100 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Perez also brings significant money into the team so the lower prize money is negated by this.

I don't think it was a deliberate strategy at the start but I certainly think it is an accident that some members of the team will be very happy with.

EmailAddress

13,699 posts

226 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Rebew said:
Perez also brings significant money into the team so the lower prize money is negated by this.

I don't think it was a deliberate strategy at the start but I certainly think it is an accident that some members of the team will be very happy with.
One reason being that Max is so capable of scoring points without any in-Race 'help' or tactics.

No shenanigans, team play etc.

They might struggle without a wingman scoring, or rather anti-scoring (taking points off the others) next Season.

ThingsBehindTheSun

1,315 posts

39 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
EmailAddress said:
Absolutely.

Next.
So are you suggesting that if Mercedes were closer to Red Bull they would have tried to finish out of the points for the remaining two races to try and get 4th in the manufacturers championship?

I struggle to believe that Perez is driving that badly on purpose and it is all part of the plan.

What were they thinking getting rid of deVries they should have promoted him to the Red Bull team to ensure they really did badly.

EmailAddress

13,699 posts

226 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
EmailAddress said:
Absolutely.

Next.
So are you suggesting that if Mercedes were closer to Red Bull they would have tried to finish out of the points for the remaining two races to try and get 4th in the manufacturers championship?

I struggle to believe that Perez is driving that badly on purpose and it is all part of the plan.

What were they thinking getting rid of deVries they should have promoted him to the Red Bull team to ensure they really did badly.
No, but circumstantially, serendipitously, through a series of unfortunate events, they have found themselves in a position where those making decisions are probably 'leaving a few things on the table', 'parking the bus', 'folding before the flop', 'keeping their powder dry'...

...

Zetec-S

6,273 posts

101 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
I'm on the fence with this. They are a team of winners, it's not in their DNA to intentionally sabotage the WCC. Look at how much the 2022 title meant to them after nearly a decade since the last. But on the other side, there are obvious upsides to it, and it is hard to explain any other reason for sticking with Perez like they have done.

DOCG

706 posts

62 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
I've said this before, but if Red Bull are deliberately underperforming then it is more likely that they are sandbagging Perez's car than it is that Perez has suddenly become one of the worst drivers on the grid.

EmailAddress

13,699 posts

226 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Zetec-S said:
I'm on the fence with this. They are a team of winners, it's not in their DNA to intentionally sabotage the WCC. Look at how much the 2022 title meant to them after nearly a decade since the last. But on the other side, there are obvious upsides to it, and it is hard to explain any other reason for sticking with Perez like they have done.
It won't be the team.

It will be lead by financials, and subtlety integrated from a very high level without a written remit.

Day-to-day will be played out as usual.

ThingsBehindTheSun

1,315 posts

39 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
If I was McDonalds, KitKat or Telmex who are all sponsoring Perez why would I continue to pay millions to Red Bull to have them deliberately nobble his car and make him look like a joke?

Or are they all in on it too?

MustangGT

12,334 posts

288 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
Zetec-S said:
I'm on the fence with this. They are a team of winners, it's not in their DNA to intentionally sabotage the WCC. Look at how much the 2022 title meant to them after nearly a decade since the last. But on the other side, there are obvious upsides to it, and it is hard to explain any other reason for sticking with Perez like they have done.
RBR have always been a single driver team, the No2 never has a say in it and the way they treat the No2 is diabolical. To win the WDC is all they are interested in. The WCC in 2022/23 was an incidental benefit to them. If they could run a single car they probably would.

Perez fits the bill perfectly, a safe pair of hands, brings in more funding than required, not quick enough to trouble the No1 and therefore not take points away from them.

Over this season the car development appears to have moved away from the type of car Perez likes, especially after the 'rules clarification' after 10 races or so. The lower position in the WCC gives more development/wind tunnel time to them which is more valuable than prize money.

Byker28i

68,351 posts

225 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
EmailAddress said:
Shelsleyf2 said:
There have been stories re employee bonuses not being paid as the team failed to hit the target. The bonuses are a large percentage of salary, even if Horner wants to keep Perez , most of tge workforce would likevto see him replaced. A kit kat each at Christmas is a poor substitute.
Red Bull literally pay in Red Bull.

We used to get crates of the stuff.

Nobody ever wanted it.
Fosters used to sponsor the British Grand Prix. They bought crates of beer for the marshalls on a large artic truck. I went home with about 240 plus cans stacked on a pallet

Byker28i

68,351 posts

225 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
The only time they were under performing was when Max was sandbagging having got the lead, then hid the second a lap performance difference until needed for fastest lap... wink

StevieBee

13,636 posts

263 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
OnDaysLikeThese said:
Is it possible that Red Bull are keeping Perez in order to keep them artificially low in the WCC and thus secure more development time?
No.

I've been looking at the commercial aspects that relate to all this.

Perez's image is appended to several very high-profile and expensive marketing campaigns in Mexico. His removal from the team would seriously undermine those campaigns, mostly likely harming sales and cost the companies many, many millions of dollars. Red Bull receive money to secure his presence in F1 and will be almost impossible for them to break without causing significant financial burden on them as well.

It's all very well saying that 'Red Bull could afford that' - but there's a complex intertwining of corporate interests at play here. The commercial deals Perez has in Mexico are not with the brands or the manufacturers directly (Nestlé / KitKat, McDonalds, etc..) but with the regional distributors of those brands. Those distributors are exceptionally powerful because there's very few of them that give non-mexican brands access to the Mexican market at a national level at scale. And what other product do they distribute in Mexico? Red Bull! The same distributors also cover all of central America and the Caribbean.

So whilst Red Bull (team and corporate) has the means to deal with the penalty clauses in terms of giving him the boot, doing so would put at risk Red Bull's access to a very significant market which would be unaffordable.

I do not believe for one minute that Red Bull are deliberately seeking a lower position to benefit from additional development capacity. For all their faults and regardless of anything else, they are a racing team. Those that run it are themselves racers, driven to succeed. Deliberate underperformance creates a race to the bottom, not to the top.

If I'm wrong on that point, then they do not deserve to be on the grid of any formulae, let alone F1.

Bottom line is that Red Bull F1 have driven themselves in to a cul-de-sac without a reverse gear. Until such time as all drivers are granted a seat based on nothing other than talent, they will not be last to suffer a similar situation.






PhilAsia

4,961 posts

83 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
EmailAddress said:
Absolutely.

Next.
So are you suggesting that if Mercedes were closer to Red Bull they would have tried to finish out of the points for the remaining two races to try and get 4th in the manufacturers championship?

I struggle to believe that Perez is driving that badly on purpose and it is all part of the plan.

What were they thinking getting rid of deVries they should have promoted him to the Red Bull team to ensure they really did badly.
Well, one MB driver will want less wind tunnel time for the Mercs and more for Ferrari!

Muzzer79

11,112 posts

195 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
I do not believe for one minute that Red Bull are deliberately seeking a lower position to benefit from additional development capacity. For all their faults and regardless of anything else, they are a racing team. Those that run it are themselves racers, driven to succeed. Deliberate underperformance creates a race to the bottom, not to the top.


This.

You simply can't run a top-tier racing team, or any top-tier sports enterprise for that matter, with a mentality that any part of it under-performing is OK.

This is a team looking for milliseconds and we're supposed to buy the theory that they've just shrugged their shoulders and said that Perez finishing nowhere is OK?

If they are doing this (and I can't believe they'd be that stupid) then a long period in the doldrums beckons.

Byker28i

68,351 posts

225 months

Tuesday 26th November
quotequote all
PhilAsia said:
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
EmailAddress said:
Absolutely.

Next.
So are you suggesting that if Mercedes were closer to Red Bull they would have tried to finish out of the points for the remaining two races to try and get 4th in the manufacturers championship?

I struggle to believe that Perez is driving that badly on purpose and it is all part of the plan.

What were they thinking getting rid of deVries they should have promoted him to the Red Bull team to ensure they really did badly.
Well, one MB driver will want less wind tunnel time for the Mercs and more for Ferrari!
That doesn't stack up either

6 George Russell 217
7 Lewis Hamilton 208