Red Bull deliberately under-performing?
Discussion
StevieBee said:
entropy said:
StevieBee said:
But the BoP (Balance of Power for those that don't know) is aligned to engine performance not on-track performance. I can't see how deliberately racing poorly would benefit any one team as the restrictions apply whether they come last or first.
There's also weight ballast.
Le Mans is the biggest race on the calendar and the manufacturers want to do well there. Years ago Ford were blatantly sandbagging all the way up to the race and they suddenly win.
There's been some good arguments to suggest this is that case but I still don't buy into the theory. If there's any benevolence to the suggestion, one might say that a lower ranking impacts slightly less on Red Bull than it might on Williams or Hass and that the trade-off is more testing capacity for the team but as a deliberate strategy, I think the risk way too high to warrant any serious suggestion.
StevieBee said:
The Driver's Championship matters only to the driver and the fans.
Max is #1.
Red Bull aren't and are unlikely to be.
Teams earn no income from the WDC. They do from the WCC.
The Constructor's Championship is what keeps teams in business, pays a lot of the bills and, critically, is the recognition of sporting and technical excellence delivered by the teams.
The salaries of the entire Red Bull F1 team - including the cleaners - is linked to the prize money they get which is linked to the standing in the WCC.
Put it like this.... There are many people on so-so basic wages at Red Bull that won't be having such an abundant Christmas, as nice a holiday next year or even having to put off a house purchase as a direct result of Perez's performance this year.
So, the WCC may not matter to you but is most certainly as important, if not more so, to the teams.
F1 teams are not run as a co-operative and it's not like RBR is being run on shoe-string budget like Brawn GP were in 2009.Max is #1.
Red Bull aren't and are unlikely to be.
Teams earn no income from the WDC. They do from the WCC.
The Constructor's Championship is what keeps teams in business, pays a lot of the bills and, critically, is the recognition of sporting and technical excellence delivered by the teams.
The salaries of the entire Red Bull F1 team - including the cleaners - is linked to the prize money they get which is linked to the standing in the WCC.
Put it like this.... There are many people on so-so basic wages at Red Bull that won't be having such an abundant Christmas, as nice a holiday next year or even having to put off a house purchase as a direct result of Perez's performance this year.
So, the WCC may not matter to you but is most certainly as important, if not more so, to the teams.
Edited by StevieBee on Tuesday 26th November 21:57
There's also the small matter of development for 2026 begins next year for all teams.
I know Armstrong won the Tout de France 7 times and he had a team to assist in that. No idea who/what the team was though. EDIT: I just found out it was the US Postal/Discovery Team
Does that help others to understand that, to a great extent, winning the WDC is massively more impactful than winning the WCC? Only those interested will know that Max drives a Red Bull, just as only those interested will know Lance Armstrong rode with the US Postal/Discovery Team.
Add to the fact that the large majority do not know the team, is the benefit of additional wind tunnel and impactful development time towards another WDC, and there you have your incentive.
Does that help others to understand that, to a great extent, winning the WDC is massively more impactful than winning the WCC? Only those interested will know that Max drives a Red Bull, just as only those interested will know Lance Armstrong rode with the US Postal/Discovery Team.
Add to the fact that the large majority do not know the team, is the benefit of additional wind tunnel and impactful development time towards another WDC, and there you have your incentive.
Edited by PhilAsia on Thursday 28th November 03:31
cjm said:
I assume if Max scores any point in the next/last two races we can all agree that RB aren't deliberately under-performing?!
A lot of people on here are struggling with "they're not fussed" vs "they are deliberately......"Edited by cjm on Wednesday 27th November 16:18
Obviously Max will still score points. However, they can still not be fussed and hope to end-up 3rd......
entropy said:
StevieBee said:
But the BoP (Balance of Power for those that don't know) is aligned to engine performance not on-track performance. I can't see how deliberately racing poorly would benefit any one team as the restrictions apply whether they come last or first.
There's also weight ballast.
Le Mans is the biggest race on the calendar and the manufacturers want to do well there. Years ago Ford were blatantly sandbagging all the way up to the race and they suddenly win.
tele_lover said:
cjm said:
I assume if Max scores any point in the next/last two races we can all agree that RB aren't deliberately under-performing?!
A lot of people on here are struggling with "they're not fussed" vs "they are deliberately......"Edited by cjm on Wednesday 27th November 16:18
Obviously Max will still score points. However, they can still not be fussed and hope to end-up 3rd......
The title of the thread says deliberately... That was the question, and the answer is obviously no. They aren't deliberately tanking, but now they are in this position it can be spun that it isn't the worse outcome due to the timing of the development seasons. I'm sure the next time RB win the WCC we will see how not fussed they are.
Edited by cjm on Thursday 28th November 08:35
deadslow said:
Impressive!But a quick look at the stats shows that he's been classified as a 'finisher' outside of the points a few times (due to completing 90% of the race).
I know this might turn this into another Max vs Lewis thread but just to show that you can look for any stats to strengthen your point of view.
Hamilton 2007-2024 retirements 32
Verstappen 2015-2024 retirements 32
Hamilton 2007-2024 retirements caused by accident or collision 12
Verstappen 2015-2024 retirements caused by accident or collision 12
And I'm sure someone will point out those stats are biased or misleading as well - which is kind of the point.
Current standings
Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
Muzzer79 said:
Current standings
Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
You can't say something sensible like that on here!! Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
Muzzer79 said:
Current standings
Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
You appear to be conflating two different things. Deliberately underperforming and not being bothered about the WCC.Mclaren 608 pts
Ferrari 584 pts
RBR 555 pts
Mercedes 425 pts
There's a maximum of 103 points per team remaining.
So, Red Bull can't finish fourth, but they can still win the title.
With Max having wrapped up the WDC, this weekend is therefore the acid test of whether the deliberately under-performing theory is true - if either or both Red Bulls are up front then they're not.
Leaving aside the professional suicide of deliberately sand-bagging to gain development time for the first half of a season before there is a massive rule change, I can't see Max trundling around in 6th on purpose.......
Max has won the WDC, courtesy of his safe drive in Las Vegas. I expect him to be fully competitive this weekend. It is my belief that the RBR car is extremely difficult for Sergio to drive, hence his low points score. RBR do not appear to be bothered by that in the slightest, they appear happy to be third in the WCC.
Both drivers can drive at their best over the remaining two races and not affect the WCC position in the slightest because it is highly likely both Ferrari and McLaren will at least equal the RBR points tally for those races. This means RBR are, to all intents and purposes, safe in 3rd position in the WCC. This is likely to be to their advantage in terms of development time for the 2026 car, why would they seek to change this?
The prize money is pretty irrelevant to them, they have more than enough coming in. As far as staff bonuses go, I have no idea how that is structured and what has been agreed about relative WCC position, it could all depend on Max winning the WDC, who knows?
Sergio provides both income and massive marketing exposure in Latin America, they must be happy with the status quo, or they would have done something to change it.
The team exists solely to promote Red Bull, best achieved by winning the WDC and by courting controversy to keep their name in the news. It is also a good investment with an excellent return. It is primarily a marketing organisation that happens to be in a sporting field.
MustangGT said:
You appear to be conflating two different things. Deliberately underperforming and not being bothered about the WCC.
Max has won the WDC, courtesy of his safe drive in Las Vegas. I expect him to be fully competitive this weekend. It is my belief that the RBR car is extremely difficult for Sergio to drive, hence his low points score. RBR do not appear to be bothered by that in the slightest, they appear happy to be third in the WCC.
Both drivers can drive at their best over the remaining two races and not affect the WCC position in the slightest because it is highly likely both Ferrari and McLaren will at least equal the RBR points tally for those races. This means RBR are, to all intents and purposes, safe in 3rd position in the WCC. This is likely to be to their advantage in terms of development time for the 2026 car, why would they seek to change this?
Well, the thread title concerns deliberately underperforming, so that is the topic at hand.Max has won the WDC, courtesy of his safe drive in Las Vegas. I expect him to be fully competitive this weekend. It is my belief that the RBR car is extremely difficult for Sergio to drive, hence his low points score. RBR do not appear to be bothered by that in the slightest, they appear happy to be third in the WCC.
Both drivers can drive at their best over the remaining two races and not affect the WCC position in the slightest because it is highly likely both Ferrari and McLaren will at least equal the RBR points tally for those races. This means RBR are, to all intents and purposes, safe in 3rd position in the WCC. This is likely to be to their advantage in terms of development time for the 2026 car, why would they seek to change this?
Are they bothered about the WCC?
Well, no-one really knows but not replacing Perez is not bona fide evidence that they aren't. They can't really replace him now as it's too late and there's a myriad of reasons why he wasn't replaced earlier in the season.
Muzzer79 said:
Well, the thread title concerns deliberately underperforming, so that is the topic at hand.
Are they bothered about the WCC?
Well, no-one really knows but not replacing Perez is not bona fide evidence that they aren't. They can't really replace him now as it's too late and there's a myriad of reasons why he wasn't replaced earlier in the season.
Perhaps I have misconstrued the premise behind the OP's question. My feeling is that Perez' lack of performance suits RBR's direction, which is to gain both the WDC and more development time, in order to have the maximum opportunity for Max to secure another WDC in 2025.Are they bothered about the WCC?
Well, no-one really knows but not replacing Perez is not bona fide evidence that they aren't. They can't really replace him now as it's too late and there's a myriad of reasons why he wasn't replaced earlier in the season.
RBR has historically dumped drivers that did not perform throughout any season. It is extremely questionable as to why they wouldn't with Perez, but the absence of points would suggest a greater quest for an advantageous position within the the current WCC development-based finishing position, and Perez' lack of ability assisting in that.
So, not deliberate by Perez, but just the ticket for RBR's needs.
MustangGT said:
Sergio provides both income and massive marketing exposure in Latin America, they must be happy with the status quo, or they would have done something to change it.
The team exists solely to promote Red Bull, best achieved by winning the WDC and by courting controversy to keep their name in the news. It is also a good investment with an excellent return. It is primarily a marketing organisation that happens to be in a sporting field.
+1The team exists solely to promote Red Bull, best achieved by winning the WDC and by courting controversy to keep their name in the news. It is also a good investment with an excellent return. It is primarily a marketing organisation that happens to be in a sporting field.
It's a sound business model.
Bo_apex said:
MustangGT said:
Sergio provides both income and massive marketing exposure in Latin America, they must be happy with the status quo, or they would have done something to change it.
The team exists solely to promote Red Bull, best achieved by winning the WDC and by courting controversy to keep their name in the news. It is also a good investment with an excellent return. It is primarily a marketing organisation that happens to be in a sporting field.
+1The team exists solely to promote Red Bull, best achieved by winning the WDC and by courting controversy to keep their name in the news. It is also a good investment with an excellent return. It is primarily a marketing organisation that happens to be in a sporting field.
It's a sound business model.
Extremely pervasive in many other areas too! Which is obviously the point.
StevieBee said:
But the BoP (Balance of Power for those that don't know) is aligned to engine performance not on-track performance. I can't see how deliberately racing poorly would benefit any one team as the restrictions apply whether they come last or first.
How to tell me you dont work in sportscars whithout telling me you dont work in sportscars.Ive never read a more miss informed view
Edited by richhead on Thursday 28th November 22:30
MustangGT said:
As far as staff bonuses go, I have no idea how that is structured and what has been agreed about relative WCC position, it could all depend on Max winning the WDC, who knows?
Even those that do know would soon be shot down on here en masse by armchair reckonings anyway 
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