F1's seriously evaluating return to V10 engines
Discussion
Siao said:
I think a lot of people would love that idea!
I do like that it is different. Basically an elongated version of the quali, the driver against the clock. With an added bonus of a random opportunistic overtake. I don't mind it, since it is just one in the calendar. Well, that was before we got another 55 street tracks...
On race day they plod around several seconds off qualifying pace. A few years ago the winner had a mechanical failure that resulted in his car being a couple of hundred horsepower down on everyone else. They still couldn't pass him.I do like that it is different. Basically an elongated version of the quali, the driver against the clock. With an added bonus of a random opportunistic overtake. I don't mind it, since it is just one in the calendar. Well, that was before we got another 55 street tracks...
thegreenhell said:
It really was needed. In a sport where every gram matters, the teams were forcing drivers into unhealthy levels of weight loss to get the cars down to the minimum weight. Teams with tiny drivers had an unfair advantage, since the specified car weight is car plus driver.
It's unfair in the same sense that an NBA player being 7'5 is. And being lighter would be much more of an advantage if the weight limit was car-only.paulguitar said:
Siao said:
I think a lot of people would love that idea!
I do like that it is different. Basically an elongated version of the quali, the driver against the clock. With an added bonus of a random opportunistic overtake. I don't mind it, since it is just one in the calendar. Well, that was before we got another 55 street tracks...
On race day they plod around several seconds off qualifying pace. A few years ago the winner had a mechanical failure that resulted in his car being a couple of hundred horsepower down on everyone else. They still couldn't pass him.I do like that it is different. Basically an elongated version of the quali, the driver against the clock. With an added bonus of a random opportunistic overtake. I don't mind it, since it is just one in the calendar. Well, that was before we got another 55 street tracks...
PhilAsia said:
"Noise that you can feel through your whole body", reminds me of a Jamaican sound system. Particularly, Jack Ruby's Sound System: 40 x KT88 valves, pushing out 20,000 Watts! The rolled off bass gets sweeter and sweeter as the valves come into their own throughout the session!
You have to experience it. Closest now is Notting Hill Carnival, and that is being pressured to stop. No V10s and no Carnival is going completely the wrong way - no fun!
40x KT88s would be nearer to 2,000 watts. A push/pull pair will output 100watts.You have to experience it. Closest now is Notting Hill Carnival, and that is being pressured to stop. No V10s and no Carnival is going completely the wrong way - no fun!
Even so, 2KW of KT88 amplification would sound sweet and using high sensitivity speakers would be very impressive.
Siao said:
TheDeuce said:
Starfighter said:
They can go full electric and put a sound generator and speaker on board. The engine can sound like anything you want it to.
They probably wouldn't need too.This is the closest we have yet to something electric that has 'F1 performance':
There is clearly some genuine sound from the car, but it's not anything like as exciting as the V10/V12 era. But... is it actually as good (or no more s
t) than today's modern hybrid PU's? I'm split on that, I don't know which I would prefer long term. I think the electric motor actually sounds more frenetic in a way, but it's still an alien sound for F1.Regards that claim of 'F1 performance' the car in the video was the original Mcmurtry, pegged at 80% downforce and power. I don't think the newer one has set a Silverstone lap yet, but the stats and performance it has proven suggest it should be as rapid as a current F1 car in quali trim. The elephant in the room is that much of its speed is due to the fan... Perhaps that's a think the sport could finally embrace though? By way of an apology for slinging out internal combustion one day, they could give F1 viewers something that has always excited them, a modern fan car. Why not? Watch the video, the way the car changes direction is remarkable, it is exciting regardless of the power source.
The pause for a super-fast charge might be a route to go down 'if' they want to electrify as soon as possible, but I suspect they will actually justify the use of ICE for as long as possible due to batteries being inadequate. I would favour that because it's a genuine reason to retain ICE for longer. Once batteries alone are capable however, the situation would flip and it would become increasingly odd to hang on to ICE after that. Keeping in mind that by that point, the current trend would suggest the ICE would already be little more than a portable battery charger, not exactly the star of the show.
Manufactures are selling hybrids in Europe for another 10 years. It will be longer than that in most other countries where F1 is held. The vast majority of F1 fans across the globe are not new car buyers either. Every major car market in the world will still be majority ICE in 2040.
Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
braddo said:
Manufactures are selling hybrids in Europe for another 10 years. It will be longer than that in most other countries where F1 is held. The vast majority of F1 fans across the globe are not new car buyers either. Every major car market in the world will still be majority ICE in 2040.
Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
We won’t mind too much if Ferrari prefers to use a V12, and let Mercedes use a derivative of their legendary M156 V8 if they like. Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
Sandpit Steve said:
braddo said:
Manufactures are selling hybrids in Europe for another 10 years. It will be longer than that in most other countries where F1 is held. The vast majority of F1 fans across the globe are not new car buyers either. Every major car market in the world will still be majority ICE in 2040.
Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
We won’t mind too much if Ferrari prefers to use a V12, and let Mercedes use a derivative of their legendary M156 V8 if they like. Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
I do genuinely think that the need for any notional link to a road product (such as it ever existed) has gone. It’s about brand and the show - V10, V12, V16, I don’t care, just make them spectacular and properly noisy!
ettore said:
Ferrari merrily made a V10 F1 engine, as they’ve merrily used pretty much every other configuration in the past.
Ferrari used a V10 because their V12 wasn't good enough to keep up with the rest of the field that were already using V10s. According to Wikipedia their first V10 was designed by an ex-Honda engineer...We are in a different age now where for the past 20+ years the engine configuration is standardised for the whole F1 field. All the teams have input into those decisions so any future decision about F1 engines is nothing like what teams were doing on their own in the mid-90s and before.
braddo said:
Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
They have made V12s though.Personally I like to see small, light 1/1.5litre turbo cars with a fuel flow limit (or similar) and the ability to run a qualifying mode with a higher fuel rate. Will never happen.
TheDeuce said:
We were talking about the future of F1 as and when suitably dense battery storage allows a full GP distance, I agree that battery swapping etc would be really dull and I really don't imagine the sport would go in that direction.
The pause for a super-fast charge might be a route to go down 'if' they want to electrify as soon as possible, but I suspect they will actually justify the use of ICE for as long as possible due to batteries being inadequate. I would favour that because it's a genuine reason to retain ICE for longer. Once batteries alone are capable however, the situation would flip and it would become increasingly odd to hang on to ICE after that. Keeping in mind that by that point, the current trend would suggest the ICE would already be little more than a portable battery charger, not exactly the star of the show.
I am not sure what you disagree with my post, I just pointed out the shortfalls of the McMurtry in racing, but anyway. The problem with batteries is that it is a technology that hasn't changed much in the last few decades (I am not an expert, but I think the last major breakthrough was the Li batteries in the 80's and very recently the solid-state batteries do look promising, but have their own challenges). I'm not sure that there is a battery that is small enough and also capable to do a full GP distance at full beans at the moment.The pause for a super-fast charge might be a route to go down 'if' they want to electrify as soon as possible, but I suspect they will actually justify the use of ICE for as long as possible due to batteries being inadequate. I would favour that because it's a genuine reason to retain ICE for longer. Once batteries alone are capable however, the situation would flip and it would become increasingly odd to hang on to ICE after that. Keeping in mind that by that point, the current trend would suggest the ICE would already be little more than a portable battery charger, not exactly the star of the show.
I just can't see this happening within the next few years (the V10s were reportedly considered for the next regs change in 2030). I too would favour ICE with bio-fuels or something over batteries though.
vaud said:
braddo said:
Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
They have made V12s though.Personally I like to see small, light 1/1.5litre turbo cars with a fuel flow limit (or similar) and the ability to run a qualifying mode with a higher fuel rate. Will never happen.
braddo said:
Manufactures are selling hybrids in Europe for another 10 years. It will be longer than that in most other countries where F1 is held. The vast majority of F1 fans across the globe are not new car buyers either. Every major car market in the world will still be majority ICE in 2040.
Being in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
The C63 is going back to V8 next year. Sales of the 4 cylinder car have been best described as lackingBeing in F1 is a good way to remind people of brand heritage and an ICE back catalogue that helps maintain brand value above Chinese EV brands.
Engines are staying in F1 for a looonnngg time yet.
But there is zero chance of F1 ditching turbos when 99.5% of manufacturers’ ICE and hybrid offerings are turbos.
As if AMG wants a NA V8/V10 in their F1 car when their C63 road car is a 2L turbo 4 for example… Ferrari have never made a V10 road car - they will veto it in F1
Siao said:
Are the current cars that different? 1.6lit turbo charged with fuel flow limit. The Quali mode can happen again I guess, it was the party mode, wasn't it?
They carry the MGU-H and MGU-K as well though. I'm thinking of a higher revving, simpler engine that might also be less reliable in quali if they push it.vaud said:
Siao said:
Are the current cars that different? 1.6lit turbo charged with fuel flow limit. The Quali mode can happen again I guess, it was the party mode, wasn't it?
They carry the MGU-H and MGU-K as well though. I'm thinking of a higher revving, simpler engine that might also be less reliable in quali if they push it.Siao said:
vaud said:
Siao said:
Are the current cars that different? 1.6lit turbo charged with fuel flow limit. The Quali mode can happen again I guess, it was the party mode, wasn't it?
They carry the MGU-H and MGU-K as well though. I'm thinking of a higher revving, simpler engine that might also be less reliable in quali if they push it.paulguitar said:
They will need to ditch turbos if we want amazing sound back.
Personally I found them too loud, and don't want to wear ear defenders watching a sport. It's okay for a few mins but gets painful if you are close to the track at a race.I did get to watch part of a race in the pre-hybrid era from the Williams pits and that was the exception to my thoughts...
vaud said:
paulguitar said:
They will need to ditch turbos if we want amazing sound back.
Personally I found them too loud, and don't want to wear ear defenders watching a sport. It's okay for a few mins but gets painful if you are close to the track at a race.I did get to watch part of a race in the pre-hybrid era from the Williams pits and that was the exception to my thoughts...
paulguitar said:
Siao said:
vaud said:
Siao said:
Are the current cars that different? 1.6lit turbo charged with fuel flow limit. The Quali mode can happen again I guess, it was the party mode, wasn't it?
They carry the MGU-H and MGU-K as well though. I'm thinking of a higher revving, simpler engine that might also be less reliable in quali if they push it.CLK-GTR said:
TheDeuce said:
Never gonna happen!
I'd love it, but those days are gone. The engine suppliers are all already gearing up for the 26' cars which obviously shift a much greater emphasis towards electrification, which is the way F1 and most commercial racing series must go.
You want to have a look at what's running in this year's Le Mans, and stealing interest, viewers, and manufacturers from F1 hand over fist.I'd love it, but those days are gone. The engine suppliers are all already gearing up for the 26' cars which obviously shift a much greater emphasis towards electrification, which is the way F1 and most commercial racing series must go.
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