Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?
Discussion
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
Sorry, but nonsense... He'll have to do a HELL of a lot more to be considered even vaguely amongst the greats.
what like dieing? seems to have worked for a certain few drivers that are held (IMO) in far to high a light.super duper mega flame suit on.
I'll let you know as soon as we've put the Tyson vs Ali debate to bed.
Any F1 driver has the potential to be the greatest of all time. I'd say Alonso has just as much chance as Hamilton in terms of raw talent. But then it's fairly subjective as there's no real metric to judge them by.
I don't think anyone will ever be judged as being better than Senna. Schumacher is probably the next best guy for comparison, and there's no shortage of people around who'll tell you he wasn't actually all that, his world championships were all thanks to other people, and other such drivel.
If you think he is / will be the greatest driver of all time, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Any F1 driver has the potential to be the greatest of all time. I'd say Alonso has just as much chance as Hamilton in terms of raw talent. But then it's fairly subjective as there's no real metric to judge them by.
I don't think anyone will ever be judged as being better than Senna. Schumacher is probably the next best guy for comparison, and there's no shortage of people around who'll tell you he wasn't actually all that, his world championships were all thanks to other people, and other such drivel.
If you think he is / will be the greatest driver of all time, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
mattikake said:
Vettel? Alonso? Kubica? Rosberg? Button?
Can't say any of them stand up to it, given they've all been beaten by Hamilton in equal machinery in one formula or another.
Not exactly an accurate measure, since they didn't all compete in "equal machinery" (different teams) or at equivalent level of experience (Rosberg beat Hamilton in F3 in Hamilton's rookie year, and Hamilton beat Vettel in Vettel's rookie year). The only two people on the grid who Hamilton has beaten in equal machinery and experience level is Rosberg in Super A and Sutil in F3.Can't say any of them stand up to it, given they've all been beaten by Hamilton in equal machinery in one formula or another.
Hamilton is very talented, no doubt. Probably the best of the post-2006 generation so far, but that is only a four-year span.
"Greatest of all time" is a very very heavy title. To put it in perspective, has Hamilton won 7 WDCs (Michael Schumacher), achieved the Triple Crown (Graham Hill), or won 5 WDCs in 4 different teams (Juan Manuel Fangio)?
Edited by Jungles on Saturday 13th November 23:29
Gwagon111 said:
You have to remember that Lewis was brought into F1 in a top end team from the start of his top flight career. This has virtually no precedence in the sport. He was given the best car on the grid, and only won the WDC because Timo Glock "threw the towel in" ( Rob Smedleys words, not mine). He failed to outperform a bad car, which he had at the beginning of last season. If he had of smashed as many of my cars up as he has Mclarens, I'd have had some serious words with him by now. He's not a bad driver, but in my opinion hes a "win it or bin it" driver. These guys look spectacular but rarely achieve G.O.A.T status. In the good old bad old days drivers like Lewis didn't live long enough.
There's a good reason why rookies don't get to get straight into top cars, but LH went well with it. LH won his championship quite easily in reality, if the spurious penalties such as Spa are ignored. It has to be said, the first black driver in F1 got a series of penalties not seen before or since Mad Max was deposed. Under him LH would have got 2 5 spots this weekend. LH outperformed a bad car in his first GP in one, Australia 2009 qualified 15th, dropped to 18th after various penalties, but got the car up to third in the race. He hasn't smashed up any more cars than anyone else pretty much, indeed 9 podiums in his first 9 races show terrific consistency. He does make mistakes, but probably no more than anyone else for this season at least, especially as he is continuing to outperform a car that is possibly not a genuine championship contender.
Nigel Roebuck recently said that Hamilton reminds him of Gilles Villeneuve in attitude and approach, and accolades don't come much higher than that.
mattikake said:
Since when could poxy MotoGP bike riders ever be relevant to the total superiority of F1?
Sorry to piss on your piss on the OP.
The G.O.A.T. moniker has, for quite some time, been applied to Rossi; first tabled by his peer Colin Edwards some years ago, in respect of Rossi's multiple world championships. Nine in total, on various bikes 125 / 250 / 500 / 990GP / 800GP, and with various manufacturers (Aprilia / Honda / Yamaha).Sorry to piss on your piss on the OP.
Edited by mattikake on Saturday 13th November 23:21
So the G.O.A.T. title is entirely appropriate for Vale. In the same way that it is not for Hamilton.
I'll ignore your "poxy MotoGP riders" comment, as - if you wish to continue with that discussion - then I suggest you start another topic.
Blue Meanie said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
Sorry, but nonsense... He'll have to do a HELL of a lot more to be considered even vaguely amongst the greats.
what like dieing? seems to have worked for a certain few drivers that are held (IMO) in far to high a light.super duper mega flame suit on.
he had no help from kovi a few seasons ago basicly on his own. dragged what was one of the most uncompetitive cars at the start of the 2009? season to actually winning a race! remember ferrari gave up that year and went for development on 2010 car.
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
Sorry, but nonsense... He'll have to do a HELL of a lot more to be considered even vaguely amongst the greats.
what like dieing? seems to have worked for a certain few drivers that are held (IMO) in far to high a light.super duper mega flame suit on.
he had no help from kovi a few seasons ago basicly on his own. dragged what was one of the most uncompetitive cars at the start of the 2009? season to actually winning a race! remember ferrari gave up that year and went for development on 2010 car.
Lewis could be but he has only really just started his F1 career so we will have to wait and see what else he achieves.
He has been very very lucky to always be in a top team, not starting in a poor car/team and working his way through F1 to the top, this is something that all the other 'greats' have done and one thing that will count against him.
I'm also not convinced he can develop a car. This year for example Mclaren seem to have been stuck in a rut with no real progress being made. Alonso and Ferrari on the other hand seem to have turned things around.
It makes me laugh when people on here dis Schumi, saying he wasn't that great!
This was a man who could develop a car. A 2time world champion risking his whole career to go to the then crap Ferrari team, win with a dog of a car and in the space of 5years turn it into a car/team that would dominate for the next 5years is unprecedented! People really don't realise how brilliant that was! It would be akin to Hamilton joining williams now and trying to turn the team back to former glory.
The testing ban imo is hurting Schumi greatly. Also i am not sure Lewis is as ruthless as Schumi and Senna 'win at all costs mentality' judge for yourself wether that is a good or bad thing! Unfortunately it is ruthlessness that gets you results and into the history books!
He has been very very lucky to always be in a top team, not starting in a poor car/team and working his way through F1 to the top, this is something that all the other 'greats' have done and one thing that will count against him.
I'm also not convinced he can develop a car. This year for example Mclaren seem to have been stuck in a rut with no real progress being made. Alonso and Ferrari on the other hand seem to have turned things around.
It makes me laugh when people on here dis Schumi, saying he wasn't that great!
This was a man who could develop a car. A 2time world champion risking his whole career to go to the then crap Ferrari team, win with a dog of a car and in the space of 5years turn it into a car/team that would dominate for the next 5years is unprecedented! People really don't realise how brilliant that was! It would be akin to Hamilton joining williams now and trying to turn the team back to former glory.The testing ban imo is hurting Schumi greatly. Also i am not sure Lewis is as ruthless as Schumi and Senna 'win at all costs mentality' judge for yourself wether that is a good or bad thing! Unfortunately it is ruthlessness that gets you results and into the history books!
AndrewW-G said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
Sorry, but nonsense... He'll have to do a HELL of a lot more to be considered even vaguely amongst the greats.
what like dieing? seems to have worked for a certain few drivers that are held (IMO) in far to high a light.super duper mega flame suit on.
he had no help from kovi a few seasons ago basicly on his own. dragged what was one of the most uncompetitive cars at the start of the 2009? season to actually winning a race! remember ferrari gave up that year and went for development on 2010 car.
however let me rephrase a little. he dragged results out of the car better than it could realisticly achieve.
Edited by slipstream 1985 on Sunday 14th November 00:18
slipstream 1985 said:
however let me rephrase a little. he dragged results out of the car better than it could realisticly achieve.
The improvement followed the adoption of the mid season upgrades that McLaren spent many millions developing, with engineers working around the clock to design, test and produce the parts, the cars increased performance from Hungary is rather noticeable, up to that point the results for hamilton were: disqualified for cheating, 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 : Kovalainen’s results for the same period were Ret, Ret, 5, 12, Ret, Ret, 14, Ret, 8, which are arguably better than hamilton’s and do not illustrate any noticeable ability from hamilton to drag the cars performance to a level above its capability . . . . . . . . he’s quick in a good car, but not one of the greats. . . . . . he's got plenty of time to improve, or alternativley go the way of several other drivers who failed to live up to their hype, we'll know in about 2020 
AndrewW-G said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
slipstream 1985 said:
Blue Meanie said:
Sorry, but nonsense... He'll have to do a HELL of a lot more to be considered even vaguely amongst the greats.
what like dieing? seems to have worked for a certain few drivers that are held (IMO) in far to high a light.super duper mega flame suit on.
he had no help from kovi a few seasons ago basicly on his own. dragged what was one of the most uncompetitive cars at the start of the 2009? season to actually winning a race! remember ferrari gave up that year and went for development on 2010 car.
AndrewW-G said:
slipstream 1985 said:
however let me rephrase a little. he dragged results out of the car better than it could realisticly achieve.
The improvement followed the adoption of the mid season upgrades that McLaren spent many millions developing, with engineers working around the clock to design, test and produce the parts, the cars increased performance from Hungary is rather noticeable, up to that point the results for hamilton were: disqualified for cheating, 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 : Kovalainen’s results for the same period were Ret, Ret, 5, 12, Ret, Ret, 14, Ret, 8, which are arguably better than hamilton’s and do not illustrate any noticeable ability from hamilton to drag the cars performance to a level above its capability . . . . . . . . he’s quick in a good car, but not one of the greats. . . . . . he's got plenty of time to improve, or alternativley go the way of several other drivers who failed to live up to their hype, we'll know in about 2020 To start off, the term G.O.A.T is a phrase that has long lived in the musical genre of HipHop and that's where the phrase originates from - it's not a phrase made-up for Rossi.
With regard Lewis and the debate at hand - I have supported him from the get go, a British driver - a ballsy sportsman of which we don't see many over here IMO. People say that being in a top team from the start might count against him - I cringe at that statement as it's just ridiculous. He didn't walk into McLaren, the son of a rich family and get a drive for the sheer hell of it (see the likes of Petrov) - he earnt that spot. People here in this thread have said that he was 'lucky' to start out at McLaren... 'luck' had zilch/nada/nothing whatsoever to do with it and if you think otherwise then you are severly deluded. It seems incredible that people think of luck being a part of his rise through the ranks. On top of it all, he beat the world champion in his rookie year, yes they were matched on points but he beat him by way of race places over the season. That's why you see his name above Alonso's in the standings. To do that and then win the next year is extrememly extremely impressive - and there's no-one involved in F1 that thinks otherwise... only arm chair fans who can air their own odd views IMO.
While on the subject of the machinery and team mates, he consistently outperformed Kovi (who I also support - follow him on Twitter if you don't already as he tweets some funny stuff) and Button this year, a great driver in his own right. That must say something...
Also, when discussing the 'G.O.A.T', many people refer to the amount of WDC's as though it is the best yardstick, but I don't think it is. We have a very competetive era of F1 upon us and the best of the best will be forever swapping race wins. Being utterly dominant may not be as 'doable' as it has been in years gone by... therefore WDC count is just one factor and not the be all and end all IMO.
Now... having said all of that, Alonso is very likely to be seen as one of the greatest and Vettel may well prove himself in years to come; like someone has already said, it's possible for any of them to achieve that status. Despite not liking Alonso's character (ever since Hungary 2007 quali and his nasty holdup tactic on Lewis), I can put that aside and say that he is in another league at times, I think he'll be considered one of the greatest, no doubt, regardless of what people think of Hamilton in years to come.
With regard Lewis and the debate at hand - I have supported him from the get go, a British driver - a ballsy sportsman of which we don't see many over here IMO. People say that being in a top team from the start might count against him - I cringe at that statement as it's just ridiculous. He didn't walk into McLaren, the son of a rich family and get a drive for the sheer hell of it (see the likes of Petrov) - he earnt that spot. People here in this thread have said that he was 'lucky' to start out at McLaren... 'luck' had zilch/nada/nothing whatsoever to do with it and if you think otherwise then you are severly deluded. It seems incredible that people think of luck being a part of his rise through the ranks. On top of it all, he beat the world champion in his rookie year, yes they were matched on points but he beat him by way of race places over the season. That's why you see his name above Alonso's in the standings. To do that and then win the next year is extrememly extremely impressive - and there's no-one involved in F1 that thinks otherwise... only arm chair fans who can air their own odd views IMO.
While on the subject of the machinery and team mates, he consistently outperformed Kovi (who I also support - follow him on Twitter if you don't already as he tweets some funny stuff) and Button this year, a great driver in his own right. That must say something...
Also, when discussing the 'G.O.A.T', many people refer to the amount of WDC's as though it is the best yardstick, but I don't think it is. We have a very competetive era of F1 upon us and the best of the best will be forever swapping race wins. Being utterly dominant may not be as 'doable' as it has been in years gone by... therefore WDC count is just one factor and not the be all and end all IMO.
Now... having said all of that, Alonso is very likely to be seen as one of the greatest and Vettel may well prove himself in years to come; like someone has already said, it's possible for any of them to achieve that status. Despite not liking Alonso's character (ever since Hungary 2007 quali and his nasty holdup tactic on Lewis), I can put that aside and say that he is in another league at times, I think he'll be considered one of the greatest, no doubt, regardless of what people think of Hamilton in years to come.
kiteless said:
mattikake said:
Since when could poxy MotoGP bike riders ever be relevant to the total superiority of F1?
Sorry to piss on your piss on the OP.
The G.O.A.T. moniker has, for quite some time, been applied to Rossi; first tabled by his peer Colin Edwards some years ago, in respect of Rossi's multiple world championships. Nine in total, on various bikes 125 / 250 / 500 / 990GP / 800GP, and with various manufacturers (Aprilia / Honda / Yamaha).Sorry to piss on your piss on the OP.
Edited by mattikake on Saturday 13th November 23:21
So the G.O.A.T. title is entirely appropriate for Vale. In the same way that it is not for Hamilton.
I'll ignore your "poxy MotoGP riders" comment, as - if you wish to continue with that discussion - then I suggest you start another topic.
Nothing.
deadslow said:
What has LH achieved so far? Not the stuff of legends.
He's good, but not great.
Compared to what others have achieved in their first years in F1......? And if you feel inspired to bring up the fact that he's been in a McLaren, see my post a couple up. If he ever is considered a legend then his first years in F1 will be a major contributing factor to that IMO.He's good, but not great.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff