Re. DELTA E-4 ELECTRIC COUPE REVEALED
Discussion
If you make your own biodiesel you can fill up at home.
But I agree with you.
As for the lines at pumps, you wouldn't need that. You could have a row of 10 or so fast charging points in parking bays at the service station. Plug in, pop in for a drink and a browse of the magazines, maybe even play in the Initial D arcade machine then pop out to your fully charged car.
If the bays are all full it wouldn't be too hard to set up a system where it sends you a text when one becomes available, the Leaf and Renault Zoe have smart phone apps for them. You could just have a code linked to your car that you scan into the charge point that says "me next", kinda like putting your 50p down on the pool table.
But I agree with you.
As for the lines at pumps, you wouldn't need that. You could have a row of 10 or so fast charging points in parking bays at the service station. Plug in, pop in for a drink and a browse of the magazines, maybe even play in the Initial D arcade machine then pop out to your fully charged car.
If the bays are all full it wouldn't be too hard to set up a system where it sends you a text when one becomes available, the Leaf and Renault Zoe have smart phone apps for them. You could just have a code linked to your car that you scan into the charge point that says "me next", kinda like putting your 50p down on the pool table.
thinfourth2 said:
Yes you can fill up a dino powered car in five minutes. But you can't fill it up at home. If you could fill your dino powered car up at home would you go to the hassle of going to a petrol station every time you need to fill up.
If I had an electric car to replace my commuter shed it would only be recharged at home.
But the main reason that recharge facilities would be small is the vast majority of cars sold will be dino powered for the once a year drive to grannies.
For long journeys simple rent a trailer which has a diesel generator that runs to charge the batteries and some extra storage for luggage. If I had an electric car to replace my commuter shed it would only be recharged at home.
But the main reason that recharge facilities would be small is the vast majority of cars sold will be dino powered for the once a year drive to grannies.
The real problem is that people are not thinking laterally and to be honest there is no need to do so while petrol remains affordable.
Even once petrol reaches £5 per litre many years from now the social changes will be to introduce more communal transport and local shops while shifting more and more to online.
Let's be 100% honest, without mmgw there is no real argument for electric over petrol.
For mundane journeys electric would be better but not cost effective because of batteries and not as flexible as petrol.
The other real problem of the price of the batteries has not had real intelligence thrown at it yet.
Electric cars should be cheaper to make and maintain but the cost of the batteries is the big hit?
Is it also not the case that the real cost (profits etc removed) can be almost completely recouped at end of life by recycling?
If this is the case then producing them locally on a not for profit basis and leasing them at a minimal monthly charge instantly solves the problem of getting electric cars down to the same initial outlay as petrol with lower running costs.
Electric cars should be cheaper to make and maintain but the cost of the batteries is the big hit?
Is it also not the case that the real cost (profits etc removed) can be almost completely recouped at end of life by recycling?
If this is the case then producing them locally on a not for profit basis and leasing them at a minimal monthly charge instantly solves the problem of getting electric cars down to the same initial outlay as petrol with lower running costs.
thinfourth2 said:
Seeing that Man made up global warming is mostly rollocks the best case for electric cars is it gives us the ability to move away from relying on oil
Trouble is that the heavy crude we import from the ME is for burning in our lovely power stations more than fueling our cars. If it is for political reasons then we need to shut down the power stations and switch to something like nuclear.
renrut said:
Talksteer said:
Lithium air batteries would murder petrol driven cars from a performance perspective.
Electric motors are around 3 times more efficient at converting energy from the battery to motion and about 1/5 the weight of a petrol engine of equivalent power. Remove the gearbox, clutch, 80% of the cooling capacity and a lot of the structure required to support the running gear the electric package would be lighter, smaller and much lower in the vehicle.
In the short term expect reasonably large improvements in battery performance. Not because the underlying technology improves but due to a very rapid learning curve in terms of putting batteries into automotive traction.
The packing methods used to build the first generation of automotive batteries will be inefficient, the connections between cells will be conservative sized. The cells themselves will be conservative in their operating parameters to guaranteed a long battery life.
If you look at the energy density of the Tesla Roadster and Model S's batteries in comparison with those of the Leaf and Volt you would see a fairly massive improvement in range/performance just be putting Tesla's current batteries in those cars.
But even the the best optimistic theoretical estimates for metal/air batteries are less than you get for liquid chemical energy storage. The sensible estimates put them around 3-5MJ/kg compared to 40-45MJ/kg for liquid chemical storage. But thats all theory. They were messing with FI for cars decades before it made it to mass production.Electric motors are around 3 times more efficient at converting energy from the battery to motion and about 1/5 the weight of a petrol engine of equivalent power. Remove the gearbox, clutch, 80% of the cooling capacity and a lot of the structure required to support the running gear the electric package would be lighter, smaller and much lower in the vehicle.
In the short term expect reasonably large improvements in battery performance. Not because the underlying technology improves but due to a very rapid learning curve in terms of putting batteries into automotive traction.
The packing methods used to build the first generation of automotive batteries will be inefficient, the connections between cells will be conservative sized. The cells themselves will be conservative in their operating parameters to guaranteed a long battery life.
If you look at the energy density of the Tesla Roadster and Model S's batteries in comparison with those of the Leaf and Volt you would see a fairly massive improvement in range/performance just be putting Tesla's current batteries in those cars.
I should state in advance we could use examples with lighter petrol drive trains, I have accepted manufacturer claims at face value and yes this is somewhat simplistic.
Also I understand that we are reliant on considerable development before Lithium air or sulphur batteries that can take thousands of charging cycles and achieve energy densities in the region of those achievable in theory are available to buy.
Our example car will be a Golf GTI.
Engine: 152kg
Transmission: 93kg DSG 45 kg manual
Fuel Tank: 55kg
Battery: 10kg
Cooling System: 25kg (full)
If we use the Tesla Roadster quoted 25kwh per 100 mile range on the EPA combined cycle we need ~ 80kwh for our electric Golf to go 300 miles. Using the weights quoted for the Tesla Model S battery (85kwh/540kg) our 80kwh battery will weight in at 508kg. I have used the delta between the theoretic energy density of Lithium Ion cells and the actual weight of the Tesla Model S battery pack to estimate what a Lithium Sulphur and Lithium Air battery pack would weigh.
Lithium Ion (250wh/kg theoretical, 157wh/kg in full battery pack) 508kg
Lithium Sulphur (600wh/kg theoretical, 377wh/kg in full battery pack) 211kg
Lithium Air (1000wh/kg theoretical, 630wh/kg in full battery pack) 126kg
250bhp motor - 32kg Tesla
Inverter - 10kg (Brusa commercial available)
Gearbox - 10kg (Zytek)
Cooling System - 5kg (scaled guess)
Petrol:
308-350kg (minus up to 45kg when driving)
Electric:
565kg - Lithium Ion
268kg - Lithium Sulphur
184kg - Lithium Air
Of course this assumes that we actually want 300 miles of range that costs a significant amount of money and adds weight. If we used the same 24 kwh capacity for the car as the Nissan Leaf currently uses the drive packages would come out as:
209kg - Lithium Ion
120kg - Lithium Sulphur
95kg - Lithium Air
I stand by my statement that Lithium Air batteries will allow electric vehicles to have considerably higher performance (including drivability, cost, NVH) than petrol cars.
In actual fact the Leaf Power train weights in at something around the 400kg, this is due to Nissan being substantially more conservative than Tesla and using cheaper components.
In my opinion Tesla appears to be going for a mobile phone designers approach verses Nissan's automotive manufacturer approach. Nissan's battery will have been design so there is a very high probably that after 10-12 years it still has 80% of its charging capability left. Tesla have probably played it more fast and loose and simply expected that even if a high proportion of Roadster and Model S batteries fail to perform 1. The early adopters don't mind that much 2. The warranty claims will be on a small number of vehicles in comparison to the numbers they will be selling when the age related problems occur.
The maths you've just put up aligns with what I'm saying - at the minute battery tech is so too far behind that it will take a massive improvement to make pure EVs sensible at present. Lithium-ion isn't good enough. Lithium-sulphur isn't available in a form that can survive long term use in an automotive environment yet and that's several years off at best I reckon. Lithium-air is still all theory with nothing really proven. On the same basis its as plausibly as fusion powered cars. If the technology does develop (10years away maybe) then I'd have no problem with getting a lithium-air powered EV as it'd be the best option for a commuter car.
The charging solutions options as I see them:
At home or fast charging stations - massive infrastructure investment and a common charging socket requirement. The queues in petrol stations are on a 1-5 minute cycle I would guess. We're talking 30 minutes for EVs = 6-10times longer here. Thats a do-able solution, more charging points and people charging at home will reduce the number needing to fill up anywhere else. This is already happening so that's that.
In road inductive charging - energy losses here is the main issue as at the air gaps you're talking about for a car with a vaguely usable ride height is quite a poor connection, so maybe 80% efficient. That's a lot of heat going into the road. I'd imagine paying for it would be dealt with by a bit of intelligence in your EV and a smart meter. But you'd be paying for 25% more electricity than you use and that'll be before they slap on an extra 'roaming' charge so I can't see that being popular. Then you've got even bigger infrastructure investment than with fast charge stations as there wont be anything like that kind of power plumbed into most roads as standard.
Trailer generator - nice idea until you start wanting to use your EV to tow a caravan or trailer. EVs aren't cut out for that sort of load lugging anyway so that immediately puts anyone who regularly tows off the idea. Personally I think its a nice solution but once you start going down that route I think most people will just want that generator with them all the time 'just in case' even if they don't use it 99% of the time, so why not just give them a plugin hybrid? See my next point.
As for the question of range its all about the perceived requirements.
How many people drive around in MPVs with 7 seats and a massive boot that are only used once a week if ever? Some will use them daily but others like the options the extra capability gives them but won't use it. Even then most cars have 4 seats even if they only ever have one person in them. The reason being its the 'normal' maximum, 200miles is considered the range most people are likely to drive in a day. Of course there'll be sales reps doing 10,000 miles a day and also the little granny who does 4 miles a week to the shops and back. Its probably the 85% percentile of most journeys or some such statistic. Most FF cars now will give a minimum of 200 miles on a tank even the properly track orientated ones who you'd think would have a reduced tank size to save weight and/or packaging.
Plugin hybrids are IMO the way forwards for short distance commuter cars. They get over the range anxiety of pure EVs but give people a car that does everything their normal car does but with a cheap fuelling option i.e. plug it in at home. The catch is they've gotta be cheaper than a decent diesel while incorporating a lot more stuff (2 drive trains in effect). The way fuel prices go that might happen but long term when tax gets loaded onto EV electricity prices it'll end up being about the same unless you have your own windfarm.
The charging solutions options as I see them:
At home or fast charging stations - massive infrastructure investment and a common charging socket requirement. The queues in petrol stations are on a 1-5 minute cycle I would guess. We're talking 30 minutes for EVs = 6-10times longer here. Thats a do-able solution, more charging points and people charging at home will reduce the number needing to fill up anywhere else. This is already happening so that's that.
In road inductive charging - energy losses here is the main issue as at the air gaps you're talking about for a car with a vaguely usable ride height is quite a poor connection, so maybe 80% efficient. That's a lot of heat going into the road. I'd imagine paying for it would be dealt with by a bit of intelligence in your EV and a smart meter. But you'd be paying for 25% more electricity than you use and that'll be before they slap on an extra 'roaming' charge so I can't see that being popular. Then you've got even bigger infrastructure investment than with fast charge stations as there wont be anything like that kind of power plumbed into most roads as standard.
Trailer generator - nice idea until you start wanting to use your EV to tow a caravan or trailer. EVs aren't cut out for that sort of load lugging anyway so that immediately puts anyone who regularly tows off the idea. Personally I think its a nice solution but once you start going down that route I think most people will just want that generator with them all the time 'just in case' even if they don't use it 99% of the time, so why not just give them a plugin hybrid? See my next point.
As for the question of range its all about the perceived requirements.
How many people drive around in MPVs with 7 seats and a massive boot that are only used once a week if ever? Some will use them daily but others like the options the extra capability gives them but won't use it. Even then most cars have 4 seats even if they only ever have one person in them. The reason being its the 'normal' maximum, 200miles is considered the range most people are likely to drive in a day. Of course there'll be sales reps doing 10,000 miles a day and also the little granny who does 4 miles a week to the shops and back. Its probably the 85% percentile of most journeys or some such statistic. Most FF cars now will give a minimum of 200 miles on a tank even the properly track orientated ones who you'd think would have a reduced tank size to save weight and/or packaging.
Plugin hybrids are IMO the way forwards for short distance commuter cars. They get over the range anxiety of pure EVs but give people a car that does everything their normal car does but with a cheap fuelling option i.e. plug it in at home. The catch is they've gotta be cheaper than a decent diesel while incorporating a lot more stuff (2 drive trains in effect). The way fuel prices go that might happen but long term when tax gets loaded onto EV electricity prices it'll end up being about the same unless you have your own windfarm.
XitUp said:
I agree that in the near future plug in hybrids will appeal to many more people than pure EVs do.
Someone do the maths and tell me how many horse power you'd need from an engine to keep something like a Nissan Leaf topped up on a long trip.
My Fiat Seicento had 54bhp when it left the factory 13 years ago and that had a top speed of 92mph. Smaller outline but probably less drag than a modern car running low RR tyres so I'd say 50bhp minimum to allow a cruise at 70-80mph. Now if you designed it to run at one high efficiency speed you could probably massively simplify it and use a small gas turbine.Someone do the maths and tell me how many horse power you'd need from an engine to keep something like a Nissan Leaf topped up on a long trip.
And something a quick web trawl picked up regarding weight of electric drivetrains:
http://www.zytekautomotive.co.uk/Products/Electric...
This is an electric drivetrain available to buy now. 70kW & 300Nm = 94hp & 220lbft and weighs in at 133kg for motor, inverter, gearbox and halfshafts. On top of that you still need a radiator, coolant, oil and batteries but as it is that's a pretty good comparison to how an ICE engine weight is normally quoted.
133kg inc gearbox sounds to be around the same weight as a 1.6 petrol 4 pot. Not sure about an equivalent power turbodiesel. Anyone got any actual figures?
XitUp said:
I agree that in the near future plug in hybrids will appeal to many more people than pure EVs do.
Someone do the maths and tell me how many horse power you'd need from an engine to keep something like a Nissan Leaf topped up on a long trip.
In a way, I don't think it matters that much. In the foreseeable future, I suspect range-extended EVs won't be bought by people who plan to travel beyond the electric range regularly, but by those who are worried about what will happen if they occasionally do. It's a safety net for the 10 percent of the time you might actually need to go beyond the battery range, and given it's only 10 percent it could have quite an ordinary efficiency for that portion and still work out okay.Someone do the maths and tell me how many horse power you'd need from an engine to keep something like a Nissan Leaf topped up on a long trip.
I'd imagine it's a bit like LPG - you plan to drive all the way to the next LPG fill up, but if you run out 500 yards before you get the fuel station and you have to flick onto full price petrol for 10 seconds then so be it.
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