RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5

RE: Tell me I'm wrong: BMW M5

Author
Discussion

theboss

6,865 posts

218 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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We often see this argument that older M5's were more distinguished from the run of the mill 5-series on which it was based. I'm fairly confident that if you were to look at them in detail, the F10 M5 has far less in common with a 550i than the E39 did with the 540i of its generation. The steering (hydraulic vs electric), suspension and transmission are all different, and the S63tu in the F10 is a high performance derivative of the N63 in just the same way that the S62 was based on the M62. Also both E39 and F10 M5's are not exactly what I would call overstyled - besides the obvious tailpipes and any badges they are both pretty inconspicuous.

Lots of rose-tinted specs round here.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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Typical issues with the modern uber saloon. Too fast to be extended properly, too refined to feel alive.

It is why lots of people, including myself choose older, slower options!

RoverP6B

4,338 posts

127 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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E65Ross said:
You're asking whether "a unique bore/stroke giving greater power, plus the M bodykit, endow it with the level of separation from a 540i the F10 lacks from a 550i".....the F10 M5 is every bit as different, in reality, from an F10 550i than an E39 M5 from a 540i.
I'm aware the E39 M5 isn't that different to my 535i. It's the same engine architecture, and the M5 gearbox is the same as the manual the lowlier V8s got (mine's an auto). The F10 - basically a 550i engine? DCT obviously... any other significant differences? Perhaps slightly wider axles? Theboss mentions hydraulic steering, but I was told by my local BMW dealer that the M5 had also gone electric.

The point is that a lot of F10 M5 owners have reported it doesn't FEEL exotic in the way its predecessor or the W212 E63 6.2 did. The US-only manual gearbox might help, I suppose. The 550i, Alpina B5 and M5 all use the same engine, whereas in the E39 and E60, the top V8 5-series, the Alpina and the M5 each had its own unique engine...

"Theboss", the S63 isn't a different version of an engine family like the S62 was. It's literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks. The S62 was a unique casting with a unique bore and stroke, none of the rotating assembly was shared with the M62... the S63 is bog standard 550i in that department as far as I've been able to ascertain...

E65Ross

34,844 posts

211 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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RoverP6B said:
E65Ross said:
You're asking whether "a unique bore/stroke giving greater power, plus the M bodykit, endow it with the level of separation from a 540i the F10 lacks from a 550i".....the F10 M5 is every bit as different, in reality, from an F10 550i than an E39 M5 from a 540i.
I'm aware the E39 M5 isn't that different to my 535i. It's the same engine architecture, and the M5 gearbox is the same as the manual the lowlier V8s got (mine's an auto). The F10 - basically a 550i engine? DCT obviously... any other significant differences? Perhaps slightly wider axles? Theboss mentions hydraulic steering, but I was told by my local BMW dealer that the M5 had also gone electric.

The point is that a lot of F10 M5 owners have reported it doesn't FEEL exotic in the way its predecessor or the W212 E63 6.2 did. The US-only manual gearbox might help, I suppose. The 550i, Alpina B5 and M5 all use the same engine, whereas in the E39 and E60, the top V8 5-series, the Alpina and the M5 each had its own unique engine...

"Theboss", the S63 isn't a different version of an engine family like the S62 was. It's literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks. The S62 was a unique casting with a unique bore and stroke, none of the rotating assembly was shared with the M62... the S63 is bog standard 550i in that department as far as I've been able to ascertain...
I strongly suggest you get your facts straight about the current 4.4 V8. You are vastly, vastly wrong in your comments about it being "literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks"

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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RoverP6B said:
I'm aware the E39 M5 isn't that different to my 535i. It's the same engine architecture, and the M5 gearbox is the same as the manual the lowlier V8s got (mine's an auto). The F10 - basically a 550i engine? DCT obviously... any other significant differences? Perhaps slightly wider axles? Theboss mentions hydraulic steering, but I was told by my local BMW dealer that the M5 had also gone electric.

The point is that a lot of F10 M5 owners have reported it doesn't FEEL exotic in the way its predecessor or the W212 E63 6.2 did. The US-only manual gearbox might help, I suppose. The 550i, Alpina B5 and M5 all use the same engine, whereas in the E39 and E60, the top V8 5-series, the Alpina and the M5 each had its own unique engine...

"Theboss", the S63 isn't a different version of an engine family like the S62 was. It's literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks. The S62 was a unique casting with a unique bore and stroke, none of the rotating assembly was shared with the M62... the S63 is bog standard 550i in that department as far as I've been able to ascertain...
Assuming what you say is true, which I doubt it all is, for those people who have run these cars and enjoyed them for what they are it frankly doesn't make a blind bit of difference.






anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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RSK21 said:
Assuming what you say is true, which I doubt it all is, for those people who have run these cars and enjoyed them for what they are it frankly doesn't make a blind bit of difference.
It is likely not to be. He has a habit of these unfounded statements.

AreOut

3,658 posts

160 months

Friday 13th January 2017
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E65Ross said:
I strongly suggest you get your facts straight about the current 4.4 V8. You are vastly, vastly wrong in your comments about it being "literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks"
it feels like an ECU tuned 550i, DCT is somewhat faster than auto but not by far since 8speed auto in 550i is excellent

oh, and it has that fake playstation sound via speakers...congratulations

on the contrary there is a world of difference between 540i(ECU tuned or not since you gain almost nothing on NA cars) E39 and M5 E39, accekeration, feeling, sound (less sound insulation on M5), LSD...literally everything

E65Ross

34,844 posts

211 months

Friday 13th January 2017
quotequote all
AreOut said:
E65Ross said:
I strongly suggest you get your facts straight about the current 4.4 V8. You are vastly, vastly wrong in your comments about it being "literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks"
it feels like an ECU tuned 550i, DCT is somewhat faster than auto but not by far since 8speed auto in 550i is excellent

oh, and it has that fake playstation sound via speakers...congratulations

on the contrary there is a world of difference between 540i(ECU tuned or not since you gain almost nothing on NA cars) E39 and M5 E39, accekeration, feeling, sound (less sound insulation on M5), LSD...literally everything
I can't say, I've never driven an F10 550i. I have driven a new M6 though, as well as the E39 in 40i and M5 configurations. If the M5 is like the M6 (which it is...) I know I'd much rather the F10 M5 as my daily car over an E39.

Edited by E65Ross on Friday 13th January 18:56

theboss

6,865 posts

218 months

Friday 13th January 2017
quotequote all
Even ignoring the engine, the M5 drives much differently to regular F10's. You have a different suspension setup, rigidly connected rear subframe, wider track, no RFT as standard, M diff, hydraulic steering... my first impression on driving mine was that it steered and generally felt much differently and more comminicatively to the other various BMWs I'd driven beforehand. It does an impressive job of shrinking around you and sticking to the road, in spite of its mass and dimensions.

Put the M5 and 550i on the ring and there would be a vast difference. They are chalk and cheese despite the commonality.

theboss

6,865 posts

218 months

Friday 13th January 2017
quotequote all
RoverP6B said:
I'm aware the E39 M5 isn't that different to my 535i. It's the same engine architecture, and the M5 gearbox is the same as the manual the lowlier V8s got (mine's an auto). The F10 - basically a 550i engine? DCT obviously... any other significant differences? Perhaps slightly wider axles? Theboss mentions hydraulic steering, but I was told by my local BMW dealer that the M5 had also gone electric.

The point is that a lot of F10 M5 owners have reported it doesn't FEEL exotic in the way its predecessor or the W212 E63 6.2 did. The US-only manual gearbox might help, I suppose. The 550i, Alpina B5 and M5 all use the same engine, whereas in the E39 and E60, the top V8 5-series, the Alpina and the M5 each had its own unique engine...

"Theboss", the S63 isn't a different version of an engine family like the S62 was. It's literally the same damn thing with some breathing tweaks. The S62 was a unique casting with a unique bore and stroke, none of the rotating assembly was shared with the M62... the S63 is bog standard 550i in that department as far as I've been able to ascertain...
So the S63 shares its block with the mainstream relative, but I'm fairly certain that everything else is fairly radically altered certainly in respect of breathing and cooling. I agree it would be nice if BMW were slightly more imaginative (bearing in mind that this engine will seemingly carry on into the next generation) and I agree that the previous M engines were rather more distinct and "special", but I also wouldn't underestimate the engineering effort that has gone into optimising the current one. Its still a rather marvellous thing in my opinion. Its tuning potential also opens up a few further avenues should one become complacent about the standard outputs.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 13th January 2017
quotequote all
AreOut said:
it feels like an ECU tuned 550i, DCT is somewhat faster than auto but not by far since 8speed auto in 550i is excellent

oh, and it has that fake playstation sound via speakers...congratulations

on the contrary there is a world of difference between 540i(ECU tuned or not since you gain almost nothing on NA cars) E39 and M5 E39, accekeration, feeling, sound (less sound insulation on M5), LSD...literally everything
Come on feels a litle bit more than that.

As for "congratulations" WTF ???

AreOut

3,658 posts

160 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
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you think it's a positive feature to have on a sports car?!

what's next, speedo that shows twice the speed so you'd have feeling the car goes faster?

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
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AreOut said:
you think it's a positive feature to have on a sports car?!

what's next, speedo that shows twice the speed so you'd have feeling the car goes faster?
To be fair the M5 is no sports car.

AreOut

3,658 posts

160 months

Saturday 14th January 2017
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it is a sports saloon, which makes it a sports car

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 26th January 2017
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AreOut said:
it is a sports saloon, which makes it a sports car
No. Its a GT not a sports car.