Fuel Poverty

[johnpeat]

Celtic Dragon said:

I work 25 miles from my flat, due to 3 defining factors..

1) Being the price of renting, its 1/2 the cost where I am, verses where I work.
2) The general council tax is cheaper where I am.
3) I have a better life outside of work, than living in a st hole of a town.

So you choose a MASSIVE commute to save money on living costs (2/3 of your reasoning) and have a nicer life (the other 1/3rd) but the cost of the commute is rising and so - erm - what's your problem exactly??

At some point your commute will stop making sense and you'll either move or change jobs perhaps - that's just how the world works, things change and all that...

You're not in "poverty" through your choices anymore than someone who leaves all their windows open in winter is in "poverty" because their house costs a fortune to heat.

[Tyrewrecker]

johnpeat said:

The irony is I love walking and I love driving - my point was that we get a LOT out of our cars but we're turning into whingers who don't appreciate what we're getting.

On the one hand we bemoan the cost of petrol and tax - on the other hand we bemoan the time and cost of the alternatives - I think we might need to stand back a bit and weigh things up a bit better.

I see your point. I just get on with the costs and enjoy driving. I don't have a long commute so those cost's are minimal.

[Celtic Dragon]

johnpeat said:

So you choose a MASSIVE commute to save money on living costs (2/3 of your reasoning) and have a nicer life (the other 1/3rd) but the cost of the commute is rising and so - erm - what's your problem exactly??

At some point your commute will stop making sense and you'll either move or change jobs perhaps - that's just how the world works, things change and all that...

You're not in "poverty" through your choices anymore than someone who leaves all their windows open in winter is in "poverty" because their house costs a fortune to heat.

25 miles is not massive to me, about 1/3 of my office do similar mileage. Hell, my walk to school was 2 miles each way! I used to commute from Hatfield to Sheffield when I did weekend work, that was massive mileage.

The days of everyone living in the town they work in are long behind us.

Edited by Celtic Dragon on Monday 26th March 17:14

[martin84]

25 miles is nothing, that should be perfectly doable for most people. I knew somebody who worked in Holland during the week and stayed in England at the weekend. Now thats a massive commute.

[johnpeat]

martin84 said:

25 miles is nothing, that should be perfectly doable for most people. I knew somebody who worked in Holland during the week and stayed in England at the weekend. Now thats a massive commute.

I did that for a year - I used things called 'aeroplanes' - it took me less than 2 hours door-to-door when it was all working

25 miles is a BIG daily commute tho - it's well over 10,000 miles a year just getting to/from work - it's over an hour of earnings at min wage in fuel alone - that's got to be seen as a lot for most people.

I live in a town where I reckon the majority of people working, work outside the town - but most will work within 15 miles (the nearest city - basically) - 25 miles is a fair-old-distance.

What you have to ask yourself - in that case - is "is there really nowhere I could live which is closer and which wouldn't cost any more/be any worse". Is there really anywhere (outside of the Highlands and Lakes and Peaks etc.) like that!?

Edited by johnpeat on Monday 26th March 17:30

[Rawwr]

johnpeat said:

It's bad enough we're in this state but the idea that fuel poverty should apply to car usage - it's a step too far I think. It's bad enough that we tolerate what amounts to selfish/lazy behaviour on an epic scale - it's another for people to demand that their selfish/lazy behaviour be subsidised or deemed an 'entitlement'.

No, I basically asked who spends more than 10% of their net income on fuel for their car. I wasn't suggesting it should be subsidised or whether or not it's a necessity or a luxury. If you want a soapbox, I'm happy to send you one in the post but, in the meantime, you might want to rethink posting you quasisociopoliticoramblathon elsewhere because frankly you're starting to sound like a bit of a lunatic.

[martin84]

johnpeat said:

I did that for a year - I used things called 'aeroplanes' - it took me less than 2 hours door-to-door when it was all working

25 miles is a BIG daily commute tho - it's well over 10,000 miles a year just getting to/from work - it's over an hour of earnings at min wage in fuel alone - that's got to be seen as a lot for most people.

Its bigger than average but if the fuel tax wasn't so high it wouldnt be a problem. Granted, its probably not worth it purely for minimum wage. I did 15k a year in commuting a few years ago but they paid me enough to make it worthwhile.

johnpeat said:

What you have to ask yourself - in that case - is "is there really nowhere I could live which is closer and which wouldn't cost any more/be any worse". Is there really anywhere (outside of the Highlands and Lakes and Peaks etc.) like that!?

'Move nearer' is a strange argument. First off moving is a difficult long process, secondly theres never enough houses to go around and thirdly, people tend to change jobs quite often these days. People dont have 'jobs for life' anymore or spend 20 years in one role, the jobs market is cut throat and you cant realistically expect people to move 15-20 times in their lives.

[XitUp]

If it's not too hilly 25 miles is bikeable.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't drive, I'm saying there are other options and you pay for the convenience of driving. I do.

'Public' transport and provision for cyclists is mostly st in this country, which is why so many people still choose to drive.

[martin84]

XitUp said:

If it's not too hilly 25 miles is bikeable.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't drive, I'm saying there are other options and you pay for the convenience of driving. I do.

'Public' transport and provision for cyclists is mostly st in this country, which is why so many people still choose to drive.

So you admit there is a lack of other options? Nobodies going to cycle 25 miles, the extra food you'd need for the energy would make it cheaper to buy some petrol! Also as a cyclist theres a high chance of getting run over. The lack of serious practical options can often make a car go beyond convenience into a near neccessity.

I'm not saying everybody should be able to drive 4litre Jeeps for £10 a year. My car does 26mpg, I'll switch to something which does better than that before I personally complain about how it affects me.

[XitUp]

Nope, there is not a lack of options, the other options just aren't as convenient as they could be.

[johnpeat]

XitUp said:

Nope, there is not a lack of options, the other options just aren't as convenient as they could be.

I rest my case entirely...

[R300will]

martin84 said:

XitUp said:

If it's not too hilly 25 miles is bikeable.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't drive, I'm saying there are other options and you pay for the convenience of driving. I do.

'Public' transport and provision for cyclists is mostly st in this country, which is why so many people still choose to drive.

So you admit there is a lack of other options? Nobodies going to cycle 25 miles, the extra food you'd need for the energy would make it cheaper to buy some petrol! Also as a cyclist theres a high chance of getting run over. The lack of serious practical options can often make a car go beyond convenience into a near neccessity.

I'm not saying everybody should be able to drive 4litre Jeeps for £10 a year. My car does 26mpg, I'll switch to something which does better than that before I personally complain about how it affects me.

what car's that?

[Celtic Dragon]

XitUp said:

If it's not too hilly 25 miles is bikeable.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't drive, I'm saying there are other options and you pay for the convenience of driving. I do.

'Public' transport and provision for cyclists is mostly st in this country, which is why so many people still choose to drive.

Its not that hilly, however I don't think the police would like me cycling down the A1m!

[Fox-]

Celtic Dragon said:

The days of everyone living in the town they work in are long behind us.

They are on the way back - fuel costs will see to that.

[1981linley]

Move closer to where you work? Not easy with the housing market as it is and when you factor in the selling fees, legal fees, moving costs etc you would have to be moving an awful lot closer to work to make it financially worthwhile. Also, what if you and the other half work in opposite directions and moving closer to ones workplace puts the other further away?

[martin84]

1981linley said:

Move closer to where you work? Not easy with the housing market as it is and when you factor in the selling fees, legal fees, moving costs etc you would have to be moving an awful lot closer to work to make it financially worthwhile. Also, what if you and the other half work in opposite directions and moving closer to ones workplace puts the other further away?

XitUp believes everybody in the household works in the same direction and 33million cars are only on the road for the fun and convenience of it. I already made clear a couple of days ago that cars for the majority are a neccessity not a toy, but if even communities which love cars (ie this place) aren't willing to stand up for them or fight Government's intentions to put us back to the 17th century then its no wonder they get away with putting the price up.

Fox- said:

They are on the way back - fuel costs will see to that.

Fuel TAX will see to that, not fuel costs. It'll be the same across Europe as fuel tax drives us even further into the past. Europe is a couple of decades from being an irrelevent continent due to its war on transport.

[Fox-]

martin84 said:

Fuel TAX will see to that, not fuel costs.

Irrelevent.

[martin84]

Fox- said:

Irrelevent.

It sort of is very relevent actually.

[XitUp]

martin84 said:

I already made clear a couple of days ago that cars for the majority are a neccessity not a toy.

No, you stated that it was your opinion. You didn't make it clear. That would require evidence.
Evidence such as the link the I posted showing that you're wrong.

[iphonedyou]

XitUp said:

No, you stated that it was your opinion. You didn't make it clear. That would require evidence.
Evidence such as the link the I posted showing that you're wrong.

Regardless of whether cars are a personal necessity for some people though, the effect of fuel prices on all aspects of life can't be discounted. Particularly the effects of further raises, I suppose. Simply because everything is transported by fuel.

So the average driver, paying through the nose for fuel, then paying the increased cost of all items manufactured and transported using fuel, isn't in a great position at the moment

It's still the case that an awful lot of people rely on their cars. And if fuel got to the stage where their productivity was affected, it'd be a fairly dire situation.

I used to have a 25 mile commute. 19 miles of it was motorway, and the first two days of the week I started at 6am. The third and fourth I finished at 10pm. The fifth and sixth were night shift, starting at 9.30pm and finishing at 6.30am. I certainly wouldn't want to use the bike for that, even if I was allowed to by law. And while that's anecdotal, there are many, many more like me, for whom the car is absolutely not an option for commuting. We also can't discount the longer hours that many of us are - rightly or wrongly - spending at work, given the recession and the wish to keep the jobs we've got. Particularly those with families will find it hard to justify an hour or more cycle to and from work.

Anyway, this is all meant in the spirit of discussion. Hopefully it comes across as such. I know how fuel threads on PH can go!

Edited by iphonedyou on Tuesday 27th March 08:06