RE: PH Blog: the death of the scary supercar
Discussion
Great article Paul 
This is the reason I bought an Ultima, a Holden and now the current 928GT. There are no mod cons, no traction control, launch control etc. It takes a lot of effort to drive quickly and I have been humiliated in the Pork by many an Evo and Scoobies. The old school cars teach you vehicle dynamics and above all respect. If the chassis is good then you don't get twitchy characteristics and when you overstep the mark, you are reminded in a very real way with the opportunity to learn when it starts to let go and what you need to do to correct it.
I have driven a lot of performance modern cars but they just aren't me. If I lose it and plough into a ditch then that's my fault for not taking the responsibility of driving seriously enough. I don't want to be rescued at the last millisecond because a 'computer can', I would rather learn by my mistakes.. and I certainly have on a few occasions. What happens when the computers malfunction?
The problem with the modern tech is that the newer drivers will never get to learn about real car dynamics unless they go on track days with Caterfields etc.. this to me is what makes driving so special - it's man versus machine. It is like learning a trade and there is a lot to learn.. front wheeled drive/rear wheeled drive and four wheeled drive. In a suitably equipped modern car you would be hard pushed to tell which wheels were being driven as the computers just make everything seamless.
The Ultima GTR was to me, the Ultimate Scary super car. It feels like you are riding in an Atom on steroids - it's very large, and like a Countach visibility is not brilliant. The engine is a few inches behind your head and much like a race car, you can hear the fuel pumps whining away over the low down vibrations from that small block which rocks the car while you are waiting to let the horses go. There's a smell of fuel, a dash full of guages, and a view through the massive front screen that tells you that you need to treat this car with the utmost of respect. No power brakes, just monster big disks and AP callipers which will pull you up so fast that you think your nose is going to bounce off the steering wheel when you brake. My friend Martin ( Jenx), ordered a new Noble.. I loaned him my Ultima while he was awaiting delivery. We compared notes: We both agreed that you could use the Noble as an everyday car but the Ultima made you sweat just going to the shops for a paper! The Noble by comparison also has no gimmicky driver aids. They are both focussed drivers' cars. Yet this was the later incarnation of Lee Noble, and a notable difference in both automotive achievement for ride and handling. It was altogether more civilised. Which one would I have now? It would have to be another Ultima!
So having driven a 991 albeit briefly last week, I was totally impressed by the fit and finish, and typically, the attention to detail which is expected from Porsche. It was a car that you could fall in love with. The power transfer was so smooth. Too smooth - like sitting on a silk cushion with a rocket up your arse
The brakes were immense and it felt 'too posh' to make it oversteer in the corners.. so I didn't (it wasn't mine!) but it also felt a little too sedate and organised. I didn't like the steering. It felt like it was electric - of course it was 
Yes you turn in and the car goes round but something was missing. I thought about it long and hard and what I realised was it reminded me of playing F1 on the PC years ago. We bought the wheel and this helped with the realism, but it was still not like a simulator, more arcade style. A few years later and Microsoft released the force feedback wheel complete with realistic (sort of) feedback vibrations. Well this is the analogy I am going to paint. Think of the Porsche as having the same feed back (none) of the early F1 game.. only it's now the other way around. Are Porsche going to do a BMW and add noise/vibrations to try and make up for what's been taken away? Are future supercars going to have a 'Pure Source' button like you have on some hifi's that take away the tone controls, to give you the most honest signals? I hope so. When you are on the limit with a proper car, you start to see the signs, steering wheel goes light, or shimmers and you know you are losing traction on the front. The electric rack? Virtually zero feedback.. until you've cooked it and then it's recovered in the blink of an eye by the computer that can drive 
So for me I would rather stick with my twenty year old Porsche. It's not fast. It can handle acceptably when you accept that it's not a sports car, it's a true GT. But it IS a drivers car. It demands respect and offers you reward when you get it right but you will have to work for it. Yes I'm getting on a bit and sounding like Victor Meldrew but you can keep your James Bond drivers' aids and your nannying systems. As drastic as it may seem, if I crash and die, it's my choice and probably my driving that caused it. But isn't that why we call these cars Sports cars? Where's the sport in driving a computer
This is the reason I bought an Ultima, a Holden and now the current 928GT. There are no mod cons, no traction control, launch control etc. It takes a lot of effort to drive quickly and I have been humiliated in the Pork by many an Evo and Scoobies. The old school cars teach you vehicle dynamics and above all respect. If the chassis is good then you don't get twitchy characteristics and when you overstep the mark, you are reminded in a very real way with the opportunity to learn when it starts to let go and what you need to do to correct it.
I have driven a lot of performance modern cars but they just aren't me. If I lose it and plough into a ditch then that's my fault for not taking the responsibility of driving seriously enough. I don't want to be rescued at the last millisecond because a 'computer can', I would rather learn by my mistakes.. and I certainly have on a few occasions. What happens when the computers malfunction?
The problem with the modern tech is that the newer drivers will never get to learn about real car dynamics unless they go on track days with Caterfields etc.. this to me is what makes driving so special - it's man versus machine. It is like learning a trade and there is a lot to learn.. front wheeled drive/rear wheeled drive and four wheeled drive. In a suitably equipped modern car you would be hard pushed to tell which wheels were being driven as the computers just make everything seamless.
The Ultima GTR was to me, the Ultimate Scary super car. It feels like you are riding in an Atom on steroids - it's very large, and like a Countach visibility is not brilliant. The engine is a few inches behind your head and much like a race car, you can hear the fuel pumps whining away over the low down vibrations from that small block which rocks the car while you are waiting to let the horses go. There's a smell of fuel, a dash full of guages, and a view through the massive front screen that tells you that you need to treat this car with the utmost of respect. No power brakes, just monster big disks and AP callipers which will pull you up so fast that you think your nose is going to bounce off the steering wheel when you brake. My friend Martin ( Jenx), ordered a new Noble.. I loaned him my Ultima while he was awaiting delivery. We compared notes: We both agreed that you could use the Noble as an everyday car but the Ultima made you sweat just going to the shops for a paper! The Noble by comparison also has no gimmicky driver aids. They are both focussed drivers' cars. Yet this was the later incarnation of Lee Noble, and a notable difference in both automotive achievement for ride and handling. It was altogether more civilised. Which one would I have now? It would have to be another Ultima!
So having driven a 991 albeit briefly last week, I was totally impressed by the fit and finish, and typically, the attention to detail which is expected from Porsche. It was a car that you could fall in love with. The power transfer was so smooth. Too smooth - like sitting on a silk cushion with a rocket up your arse
The brakes were immense and it felt 'too posh' to make it oversteer in the corners.. so I didn't (it wasn't mine!) but it also felt a little too sedate and organised. I didn't like the steering. It felt like it was electric - of course it was Yes you turn in and the car goes round but something was missing. I thought about it long and hard and what I realised was it reminded me of playing F1 on the PC years ago. We bought the wheel and this helped with the realism, but it was still not like a simulator, more arcade style. A few years later and Microsoft released the force feedback wheel complete with realistic (sort of) feedback vibrations. Well this is the analogy I am going to paint. Think of the Porsche as having the same feed back (none) of the early F1 game.. only it's now the other way around. Are Porsche going to do a BMW and add noise/vibrations to try and make up for what's been taken away? Are future supercars going to have a 'Pure Source' button like you have on some hifi's that take away the tone controls, to give you the most honest signals? I hope so. When you are on the limit with a proper car, you start to see the signs, steering wheel goes light, or shimmers and you know you are losing traction on the front. The electric rack? Virtually zero feedback.. until you've cooked it and then it's recovered in the blink of an eye by the computer that can drive So for me I would rather stick with my twenty year old Porsche. It's not fast. It can handle acceptably when you accept that it's not a sports car, it's a true GT. But it IS a drivers car. It demands respect and offers you reward when you get it right but you will have to work for it. Yes I'm getting on a bit and sounding like Victor Meldrew but you can keep your James Bond drivers' aids and your nannying systems. As drastic as it may seem, if I crash and die, it's my choice and probably my driving that caused it. But isn't that why we call these cars Sports cars? Where's the sport in driving a computer
I thank you praise indeed. I fear we are becoming far too old Not so very long ago, 600bhp was only achieved by DFV engined F1 cars, and top-line sports cars driven by professional racing drivers on closed courses. Now that any Tom, Vladimir, Hassan or Chan can pop along to their local dealer and buy a road car with that sort of power it seems eminently sensible that it should have as many safety systems as can be squeezed in.
The alternative is they get banned by the safety Nazis.
SS7
The alternative is they get banned by the safety Nazis.
SS7
Tiger Two said:
James May did 253mph in a Veyron. Would he have done it in a McLaren F1?
No.
That's why i'd have a Macca over a Veyron any day of the week, there is that feeling at the back of your mind that if you're not 110% on the ball when driving it, the f
ker will kill you.
I like that...
Not sure you have a clue what you're talking about.No.
That's why i'd have a Macca over a Veyron any day of the week, there is that feeling at the back of your mind that if you're not 110% on the ball when driving it, the f
ker will kill you.I like that...
Never mind if it was an F1 or a Veyron, either of those cars will kill you if pushed, just as would any car. I know there are some on here with huge egos & they really believe they're driving gods, but they're not.
Also, please tell me how to give 110% when driving.......
F1GTRUeno said:
Meh, the SLS is what a 355 was 15 years ago, was the F355 scary?
It's performance figures are fantastic but it's not a true supercar, it's a sportscar.
Supercar would be if they made a successor to the CLK-GTR or something.
True, but as I've said a few times this isn't SLS specific. You're not wrong (but that CLK is a bit more Hyper than Super) I'm just thinking of the current genre, not just the big Benz.It's performance figures are fantastic but it's not a true supercar, it's a sportscar.
Supercar would be if they made a successor to the CLK-GTR or something.
A great article, and also a great post from his Lordship above both meet the proverbial head of the nail.
For me though, the computer aided-ness isn't limited solely to the driving experience, but also to the whole running of the vehicle. I was speaking a few weekends ago with a chap lucky enough to own a 1971 Miura SV - he told me about the starting procedure of it, and how prone it was to flooding. If he floods it, which he does regularly, to get at the spark plugs, the front most carburetor has to be removed.
Modern supercars are such finely tuned and balanced machines that they're manufactured by people in clinically clean white factories by men in decontamination suits. I prefer the days when a chassis was welded together by a proper bloke, and a suitably large V8 was deposited in the front.
Gone are the days of getting out your toolkit at the weekend and giving the 'old girl' an oil change, or stripping down and balancing the carbs... For me, driver involvement isn't just about how the car feels on the road, it's about getting to know the car under the bonnet. Learning what lives under there, and how to get the very best from it.
Enough of that, I'm going to give the coolant system a flush on the Jensen.
For me though, the computer aided-ness isn't limited solely to the driving experience, but also to the whole running of the vehicle. I was speaking a few weekends ago with a chap lucky enough to own a 1971 Miura SV - he told me about the starting procedure of it, and how prone it was to flooding. If he floods it, which he does regularly, to get at the spark plugs, the front most carburetor has to be removed.
Modern supercars are such finely tuned and balanced machines that they're manufactured by people in clinically clean white factories by men in decontamination suits. I prefer the days when a chassis was welded together by a proper bloke, and a suitably large V8 was deposited in the front.
Gone are the days of getting out your toolkit at the weekend and giving the 'old girl' an oil change, or stripping down and balancing the carbs... For me, driver involvement isn't just about how the car feels on the road, it's about getting to know the car under the bonnet. Learning what lives under there, and how to get the very best from it.
Enough of that, I'm going to give the coolant system a flush on the Jensen.
Garlick said:
And that sir, is the whole point of the tale.
Exactly. It’s like skiing. We use two strips of carbonfibre and hurtle down mountains under our own steam. In reality, we’d be much safer and usually nearly as quick taking a skidoo or a chair lift. But we don’t, because we actively seek out the fear factor and the thrill of mastering something that is inherently risky. Trevor M said:
Modern technology has enabled the modern supercar to evolve to fit the tastes of the average supercar owner: a rich poseur who can't drive and just wants the looks/image and now luxury. A vast majority never earned their money, and they don't think they have to "earn" their supercar's driving experience, either. They speak with their giant wallets, and the manufacturers have been listening for quite a while.
However, the exceptions out there are fantastic. If somebody has a few hundred grand to spend on a car, why not buy an as new Carrera GT with only a thousand miles or so on it? Lots of those available -- the poseurs who bought them hate them as they're too hard to drive and they're just taking up garage space between the Maybach and the Prius. Or if you MUST have a brand new car, the new Lamborghini Gallardo 550-2 with a manual transmission seems to be just about perfect with way more driving involvement and fun than the 4 wheel drive car with E-gear, by all accounts. It seems to me to be the ultimate mid-engine exotic car for real drivers right now -- and the razor sharp styling has really stood the test of time, and leaps out of a line up of soap bars.
I'm impressed,you've interviewed everyone who has bought a super car and got initiate details about how they acquired their wealth. However, the exceptions out there are fantastic. If somebody has a few hundred grand to spend on a car, why not buy an as new Carrera GT with only a thousand miles or so on it? Lots of those available -- the poseurs who bought them hate them as they're too hard to drive and they're just taking up garage space between the Maybach and the Prius. Or if you MUST have a brand new car, the new Lamborghini Gallardo 550-2 with a manual transmission seems to be just about perfect with way more driving involvement and fun than the 4 wheel drive car with E-gear, by all accounts. It seems to me to be the ultimate mid-engine exotic car for real drivers right now -- and the razor sharp styling has really stood the test of time, and leaps out of a line up of soap bars.
Some very good points, a drivers car should need some ability and respect to drive. I would say that it should be relative. A supercar without abs would be daft,.and maybe some level of tcs,asc. I have a 3.2 carrera and without any electronics it can be a bit of a shock to drive sometimes, would be interesting if it did 200 mph
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