RE: Dany Bahar suspended
Discussion
I'm always interested in where those who seek to divide the sports car buying public between IT nerds and those who choose their car based only on who they've seen driving it in Hello magazine place themselves. It's a ridiculous false dichotomy, but if we must divide the world thus, aren't there enough companies churning out superficial s
te for superficial people?
te for superficial people?otolith said:
I'm always interested in where those who seek to divide the sports car buying public between IT nerds and those who choose their car based only on who they've seen driving it in Hello magazine place themselves. It's a ridiculous false dichotomy, but if we must divide the world thus, aren't there enough companies churning out superficial ste for superficial people?
te for superficial people?
otolith said:
I'm always interested in where those who seek to divide the sports car buying public between IT nerds and those who choose their car based only on who they've seen driving it in Hello magazine place themselves. It's a ridiculous false dichotomy, but if we must divide the world thus, aren't there enough companies churning out superficial ste for superficial people?
98% of people want something that's fast, looks nice, makes them feel good, is built well in a tactile and visual sense, is a cool brand and will reflect well upon them in a status sense. Nowt wrong with that and most of THOSE people won't read hello, aren't particuarly shallow or superficial, and have never heard of pistonheads. It feels like you are polarising this into an 'us and them' and creating a mythology about these people out of your own personal anger toward them perhaps ? i.e. If you are not an elise driving IT nerdo-spacattack with a copy of Stanifoths and the Autosport circuit guide beside your bed then you are a shallow 'hello' reader who can't drive and indulges in a completely superficial fashionisat existence .... err, I don't think so ! te for superficial people?
You have to sell to these people to exist, there isn't a choice anymore, unless of course you are an ariel cars the size of ariel with same sort of microscopic dev costs and overheads. What's more, the Boxster and MX5 have become eveyday and commonplace but in isolation they are definitely not 'superficial s
te'.(The other 2% are the purist aspergo-mongers.
)Edited by jackal on Monday 28th May 17:57
jackal said:
There are only so many Informtaion Technlogy 'aspergo-mongs' out there who spend their lives jacking off over K&N air filters, talking about rollsteer stifness and studying Harris's twitter feed 24/7. Besides, they already all have elises in any case. 
As someone mentioned, the S, Exige V6 and Evora are all great cars. But they are playing to an audience of around 9 people. Lotus can't make cars like that anymore and hope to survive. The 1980's and 90's are long gone and the world has changed. You either do an 'Ariel cars' or you do an 'Aston Martin', you can't do something inbetween.
Chortle. As someone mentioned, the S, Exige V6 and Evora are all great cars. But they are playing to an audience of around 9 people. Lotus can't make cars like that anymore and hope to survive. The 1980's and 90's are long gone and the world has changed. You either do an 'Ariel cars' or you do an 'Aston Martin', you can't do something inbetween.
I was chatting to someone today who raised an interesting point, basically along these lines:
'99% of blokes in their 20s to 30s are focussed primarily on getting laid. Car purchases are made to facilitate as much shagging as possible. Lotus sell products to that remaining 1% and that is why they don't make money and where they have gone wrong.'
It was amusing and kind of poignant. The reality is that Dori after an end of evening reaming probably won't know what a Lotus is or not be suitably impressed.
otolith said:
GingerNinja said:
otolith said:
Bluntly, why should anyone care? We are oversupplied with mainstream cars. How will the world be a better place for Lotus making more of what you can already buy from Porsche, BMW, Audi or Mercedes?
It is one thing to believe that the only way (for instance) a real ale brewer can survive is to become a purveyor of mass market nitrokeg beverages, it's quite another to think it a cause for celebration.
Because as Lotus has regularly lost money while being a purveyor of low volume niche products, perhaps the thinking is if they went mainstream they might increase sales volumes, appeal to a wider audience with bigger pockets and start to make some money?It is one thing to believe that the only way (for instance) a real ale brewer can survive is to become a purveyor of mass market nitrokeg beverages, it's quite another to think it a cause for celebration.
Just sayin'
BrassMan said:
sisu said:
What I don't get is how a £92K builders renovation bill on a rental property of an employee is now the reason that Lotus failed? Now everyone is saying "Oh that Dany Bahar shagged the company..." and since 2009 everyone has been blowin smoke up his arse and the prototypes they launched back in 2010.
This was years in the coming and like Saab there are alot of enthusiasts and history, but it has been bleeding money for years.
Should they have been heading for a carbon fibre tub technology rather than a tarted up MR2 that Toyota couldn't get their old CEOs to give it the Bukkake sign off. But they are behind the 8 ball now with a Toyota Camry V6 and the prototype Esprit in the ditch.
So they've called in the recievers?This was years in the coming and like Saab there are alot of enthusiasts and history, but it has been bleeding money for years.
Should they have been heading for a carbon fibre tub technology rather than a tarted up MR2 that Toyota couldn't get their old CEOs to give it the Bukkake sign off. But they are behind the 8 ball now with a Toyota Camry V6 and the prototype Esprit in the ditch.
Or is this just more wishful thinking?
jackal said:
98% of people want something that's fast, looks nice, makes them feel good, is built well in a tactile and visual sense, is a cool brand and will reflect well upon them in a status sense. Nowt wrong with that and most of THOSE people won't read hello, aren't particuarly shallow or superficial, and have never heard of pistonheads. It feels like you are polarising this into an 'us and them' and creating a mythology about these people out of your own personal anger toward them perhaps ? i.e. If you are not an elise driving IT nerdo-spacattack with a copy of Stanifoths and the Autosport circuit guide beside your bed then you are a shallow 'hello' reader who can't drive and indulges in a completely superficial fashionisat existence .... err, I don't think so !
You have to sell to these people to exist, there isn't a choice anymore, unless of course you are an ariel cars the size of ariel with same sort of microscopic dev costs and overheads. What's more, the Boxster and MX5 have become eveyday and commonplace but in isolation they are definitely not 'superficial ste'.
(The other 2% are the purist aspergo-mongers.)
Those people are well catered for by Porsche, BMW, Audi, Merecedes et al, all of whom do the luxury sports car package better than Lotus ever will (unless a backer has very deep pockets and huge amounts of patience).You have to sell to these people to exist, there isn't a choice anymore, unless of course you are an ariel cars the size of ariel with same sort of microscopic dev costs and overheads. What's more, the Boxster and MX5 have become eveyday and commonplace but in isolation they are definitely not 'superficial s
te'.(The other 2% are the purist aspergo-mongers.
)Edited by jackal on Monday 28th May 17:57
When Lotus got their package right, lastly with the S1 Elise in my somewhat biassed opinion, it sold well. If the lightweight, drivers sports car niche isn't big enough for Lotus as it currently exists then Lotus needs to downsize, again imo. Like it or not, that's their niche.
LOTUS
Lightweight sports car with bodywork.
At least one affordable model in the 15K band.
Built solely with function in mind.
Hand assembled by good British craftsmen.
Looks and aero designed for aerodynamic optimisation only, then tweaked to look beautiful by Italian standards.
Engineered to last like a VW and be raced at any moment, requiring only normal maintenance.
A machine capable of transmitting the pleasures of driving fast, vehicle control and stability better than any other manufacturer.
An elegant marketing strategy far from comparing itself to cars that by no means are similar to it, leave that for the Journos.
This, in my mind is what they should be thinking of, Its not impossible it just takes will and cleansing to establish.
As for the link to hip hop....It should have been more subtle, not announced and celebrated as obviously and desperately as it was. It should have looked like the car was desirable to hip hop artists and not the other way round, as if Lotus was desperately seeking hip hop artists attention. Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati and the rest lease their cars for videos, they don't pay a producer for ....... what's has he done that I have perceived? oh yes he named Lotus in a song and yelled a lot in a bad promo vid. LAME
Having worked with the cars to the point of taking them apart completely, rebuilding them, optimising their performance and driving them I have to say they are not bad at all and deserve to be regarded as very good sportscars.
By no means will they succeed comparing themselves to "winaraffletopayfora" Porsche, using products that are not even in the same league by lightyears. The name LOTUS is linked forever with a lightweigt, spartan, joyful sportscar and unless they put a whole generation to sleep it will remain unchanged.
They should concentrate on making their machines more affordable, cleverly simple and functional for the sole purpose of enjoying driving. The peoples sportscar.
This means getting their cars into tasteful cinema chases, racing in a series that's aired on TV to prove their worth against lesser manufacturers, giving cars to celebs that will appreciate them and rally them if the rules permit.
I wish LOTUS the best of luck.
Lightweight sports car with bodywork.
At least one affordable model in the 15K band.
Built solely with function in mind.
Hand assembled by good British craftsmen.
Looks and aero designed for aerodynamic optimisation only, then tweaked to look beautiful by Italian standards.
Engineered to last like a VW and be raced at any moment, requiring only normal maintenance.
A machine capable of transmitting the pleasures of driving fast, vehicle control and stability better than any other manufacturer.
An elegant marketing strategy far from comparing itself to cars that by no means are similar to it, leave that for the Journos.
This, in my mind is what they should be thinking of, Its not impossible it just takes will and cleansing to establish.
As for the link to hip hop....It should have been more subtle, not announced and celebrated as obviously and desperately as it was. It should have looked like the car was desirable to hip hop artists and not the other way round, as if Lotus was desperately seeking hip hop artists attention. Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati and the rest lease their cars for videos, they don't pay a producer for ....... what's has he done that I have perceived? oh yes he named Lotus in a song and yelled a lot in a bad promo vid. LAME
Having worked with the cars to the point of taking them apart completely, rebuilding them, optimising their performance and driving them I have to say they are not bad at all and deserve to be regarded as very good sportscars.
By no means will they succeed comparing themselves to "winaraffletopayfora" Porsche, using products that are not even in the same league by lightyears. The name LOTUS is linked forever with a lightweigt, spartan, joyful sportscar and unless they put a whole generation to sleep it will remain unchanged.
They should concentrate on making their machines more affordable, cleverly simple and functional for the sole purpose of enjoying driving. The peoples sportscar.
This means getting their cars into tasteful cinema chases, racing in a series that's aired on TV to prove their worth against lesser manufacturers, giving cars to celebs that will appreciate them and rally them if the rules permit.
I wish LOTUS the best of luck.
jackal said:
98% of people want something that's fast, looks nice, makes them feel good, is built well in a tactile and visual sense, is a cool brand and will reflect well upon them in a status sense. Nowt wrong with that and most of THOSE people won't read hello, aren't particuarly shallow or superficial, and have never heard of pistonheads.
No they don't - 98% of people want a diesel Audi A4 in silver, and actually own a small hatchback or mpv. Perhaps that's what Lotus should make? (and yes, if someone buys a "cool brand" because of how he thinks it will reflect on him, he is very superficial)
As for the MX-5 or Boxster - most of what differentiates them from what Lotus do and makes them mass-market acceptable is superficial s
te. But if I wanted such a thing, why would I buy one from Lotus when Porsche and Mazda are churning them out in massive numbers. Why would I buy any mass market product from Lotus? Certainly not because some celebrity has been given one.DonkeyApple said:
Chortle.
I was chatting to someone today who raised an interesting point, basically along these lines:
'99% of blokes in their 20s to 30s are focussed primarily on getting laid. Car purchases are made to facilitate as much shagging as possible. Lotus sell products to that remaining 1% and that is why they don't make money and where they have gone wrong.'
Erm, the above may be correct but is also irrelevant as everyone knows that 50% of new cars is a company car, and the other half is being bought by over 50s. I was chatting to someone today who raised an interesting point, basically along these lines:
'99% of blokes in their 20s to 30s are focussed primarily on getting laid. Car purchases are made to facilitate as much shagging as possible. Lotus sell products to that remaining 1% and that is why they don't make money and where they have gone wrong.'
mrclav said:
10 Pence Short said:
Lotus is for drivers.
As opposed to what? Lotus can't be for Jet pilots? Ship captains? Car mechanics? Quantum physicists? That line is quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard - by default if you buy a car and drive it then you're a driver!I hope it wouldn't be too harsh a comment to suggest that perhaps you read what I wrote but on this occasion didn't quite comprehend it?
Yes, anyone with a licence to drive who then uses that to drive, drives. This is obvious by definition, though I thank you for pointing out nevertheless, presumably for my own benefit.
The inference was that, which with hindsight I didn't make obvious enough for some, there are people with differing priorities when buying a car. Some will prioritise any preferable mix of comfort, price, performance, handling, image and so on. Without wanting to be so bold as to presume too strongly, I have always felt buyers of Lotus cars have been particularly appreciative of handling dynamics and the nuances of feel in the interface between driver and machine. Perhaps in Lotus buyers' case this is more prevalent as a percentage than is found with competing marques. You see, some people can and/or have to drive cars, and some people like to drive cars.
I do hope you took no offence from my obvious stupidity and hope this post further illuminates my earlier point of view with the minimum of additional stupidity.
DonkeyApple said:
Chortle.
I was chatting to someone today who raised an interesting point, basically along these lines:
'99% of blokes in their 20s to 30s are focussed primarily on getting laid. Car purchases are made to facilitate as much shagging as possible. Lotus sell products to that remaining 1% and that is why they don't make money and where they have gone wrong.'
It was amusing and kind of poignant. The reality is that Dori after an end of evening reaming probably won't know what a Lotus is or not be suitably impressed.
Do people still use cars to get laid? Really?I was chatting to someone today who raised an interesting point, basically along these lines:
'99% of blokes in their 20s to 30s are focussed primarily on getting laid. Car purchases are made to facilitate as much shagging as possible. Lotus sell products to that remaining 1% and that is why they don't make money and where they have gone wrong.'
It was amusing and kind of poignant. The reality is that Dori after an end of evening reaming probably won't know what a Lotus is or not be suitably impressed.
RYH64E said:
When Lotus got their package right, lastly with the S1 Elise in my somewhat biassed opinion, it sold well.
Like I say, it's not the 1990's. Those days are over. In 1992 I bought an Elan SE. It's what you bought as there wasn't anything else. In fact there was a fairly obvious shopping list ... a Corrado if you didn't have 20 grand, then an Elan SE or a Griffith if you were feeling a little braver. After that rich people bought a 964. End of.Roll onto the late 90's and it was pretty similar. Mid teens you bought a MGF or an MX5 but at a few thousand more the elise was far more excisting and newfangled. That's what you bought unless you were still bang into your TVR's. The trackday scene was starting to get bigger and the only other true out of the box trackcar was a caterham. There were no radicals, no atoms, no KTM's, no Nobles, no Caymans, the scooby/evo/skyline thing was in its infancy and your hot hatch choice was also extremely limited by today's standards. Audi didn't make any fun cars (TTrs, R8's etc..), secondhand GT3's didn't really exist, there were no VX220's, toyota MR2 mkiii's etc. etc.
These days however, anyone with 30-40k in their pocket sits in a totally different landscape and has the luxury of browsing used GTr's, GT3's, M3's, M coupes, Boxster spyders, Cayman R's, Focus RS's, a zillion and one tuned jap mobils... the list is endless. Crank it up to Evora budgets and then the world really is your oyster with used F430's, 997's GT3's, R8s', Gallardos etc...
The S1 sold well but that landscape, that golden moment has gone forever.
RYH64E said:
If the lightweight, drivers sports car niche isn't big enough for Lotus as it currently exists then Lotus needs to downsize, again imo. Like it or not, that's their niche.
Well yes, I agree. unless it does a Danny Bahar and makes a range of next gen lotuses. A tall order though primarly IMO because of the nature of lotus as a company. Companies are like families. They work as a single organism. The people in them are hired by the people who are already there. The people hired are chosen because they fit into the family. The company ends up having a single character that is engendered in and is very hard to alter. IME the character of lotus is a very particular one (having worked for them and having owned 4 of their cars now), of the sort which would make it nigh on impossible to create a successful range of 50-150k luxury sports cars that would sell. One man's idea is one thing but the whole organism has be right to make it happen successfully. jackal said:
One man's idea is one thing but the whole organism has be right to make it happen successfully.
And someone has to fund the idea, to the tune of £500m if I remember correctly.I disagree about the market potential of a lightweight, no frills, weekend toy. Maybe updated using carbon fibre for the chassis and a modern, lightweight turbo engine, but I think that the potential is there if the product is right. Of the various options available to Lotus I think they have more chance of success in their core market than they have trying to compete with Porsche etc in theirs.
otolith said:
(and yes, if someone buys a "cool brand" because of how he thinks it will reflect on him, he is very superficial)
As for the MX-5 or Boxster - most of what differentiates them from what Lotus do and makes them mass-market acceptable is superficial ste. But if I wanted such a thing, why would I buy one from Lotus when Porsche and Mazda are churning them out in massive numbers. Why would I buy any mass market product from Lotus? Certainly not because some celebrity has been given one.
Self-deception is what i see here.As for the MX-5 or Boxster - most of what differentiates them from what Lotus do and makes them mass-market acceptable is superficial s
te. But if I wanted such a thing, why would I buy one from Lotus when Porsche and Mazda are churning them out in massive numbers. Why would I buy any mass market product from Lotus? Certainly not because some celebrity has been given one.No one is exempt from brand idenity and how it influences purchase choice. You are still communicating a piece of yourself to the world through you car whether you like that idea or not.
Even by buying the 'uncool cool brand' you are the same as the person who is buying a more fashion orientated car which is deemed cool. You are still buying into an identity and your choice is just as premeditated as anyone else's.
One person might want to be considered 'hip and cool', the other person 'a proper driver who is sensitive to the finest handling nuances'. You are no higher than them abd it's all the same bag.
"oh, you're going for the uncool cool brand dollar"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo
No. No, I'm not. I bought it because I like it, because I like driving and there is nothing else suitable for my needs. I'm not trying to impress anybody else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo
No. No, I'm not. I bought it because I like it, because I like driving and there is nothing else suitable for my needs. I'm not trying to impress anybody else.
I'm not surprised. The ambition just seemed way beyond of what the brand would be currently capable of.
It takes dedication to put down the money that an Evora or suchlike commands on a relatively shakey company, especially in todays unknown climate.
I do hope they can manage to pull through with or without Mr. Bahar.
It takes dedication to put down the money that an Evora or suchlike commands on a relatively shakey company, especially in todays unknown climate.
I do hope they can manage to pull through with or without Mr. Bahar.
900T-R said:
Erm, the above may be correct but is also irrelevant as everyone knows that 50% of new cars is a company car, and the other half is being bought by over 50s.
But that over 50 bloke, now his kids have done one and he is free to go for a drive, wants a car that in his mind pulls chicks.
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