RE: Lotus five-car future is canned
Discussion
Jaged said:
bleunos said:
Why don't Lotus just build an affordable sports car instead of chasing Aston, Ferrari, Porsche?
They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
There seem to be a few PH'ers knocking your idea mate??They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Shame thay don't look at the Proton web site, as Proton's most expensive normal car is under £12k!
On the ROAD in the UK!
If I were the new owners, I'd knock all this Donny Bear s
te on the head and get them to put more resources into MY main brand and get a "Proton Lotus" on the road. A proper Proton Lotus!
Then I'd let Lotus loose on that new 2 seat sports car design you suggest, and we all want, but it will be made in the Proton Factory, not a shed in Norfolk.
Now having said that, the base Proton Lotus body parts (4 & 2 seater) will then be made available to Lotus Norfolk to build a "Lotus Proton" for the few select customers who want that bit "Extra"!
It would work IMHO and give everybody what they want?
In the mean time they can carry on with current models to keep things running, so the workforce can see what is coming and get ready for it.
For the Proton "Knockers", Proton Rally Team seem to be doing rather well lately.
eein said:
Twincam16 said:
I quite like the idea of a Lotus hot-hatch myself. Not merely a Lotus-badged, Lotus-tuned thing, but a completely rebodied car in the mould of these new 'boutique hatchbacks' - MINI, Alfa Mito, Vauxhall Adam, Fiat 500, Aston Martin Cygnet etc - but with absolutely scorching performance.
Rather than being some doe-eyed 'retro' thing, it could be a forward-looking cross between an M100 Elan (the FWD turbo, viceless handling bit) and a 500-series Elite (the full four-seater, futuristic-looking, hatchback bit).
It would need a completely 'Lotus' identity to work, rather than a 'by Lotus' badge. It could be based on a Proton Satria Neo or Gen-2, its performance upgrades could borrow heavily from the rallying or BTCC programmes, I'm thinking a three-door semi-coupe shape somewhere between a VW Scirocco and a Volvo C30. Low nose, high tail, recognisable Lotus 'face' and an interior that nods to the bare-aluminium aesthetic of the Elise but is comfortable and spacious enough for people to consider using as a practical family car.
To avoid lots of cost, could they knock up some sort of compact shooting brake hot hatch thing using their existing 'modular architecture'? I know it initially conjures up horrible images, but with a bit of good design an Elise shooting brake?Rather than being some doe-eyed 'retro' thing, it could be a forward-looking cross between an M100 Elan (the FWD turbo, viceless handling bit) and a 500-series Elite (the full four-seater, futuristic-looking, hatchback bit).
It would need a completely 'Lotus' identity to work, rather than a 'by Lotus' badge. It could be based on a Proton Satria Neo or Gen-2, its performance upgrades could borrow heavily from the rallying or BTCC programmes, I'm thinking a three-door semi-coupe shape somewhere between a VW Scirocco and a Volvo C30. Low nose, high tail, recognisable Lotus 'face' and an interior that nods to the bare-aluminium aesthetic of the Elise but is comfortable and spacious enough for people to consider using as a practical family car.
Basing a kind of Lotus super-hatch on a Proton would work well IMO, because they designed the chassis and suspension themselves so they know what it'd be like if they turned up the wick. I'd approach its engineering like this:
As per the other premium hatches, I'd keep it three-door, basing it on the Proton Satria Neo.
Chassis: Already quite sporty to drive, but maximise this, stiffening the suspension if necessary. You wouldn't necessarily need to alter the componants themselves, just the way they're set up.
Engine: Install the engine from the Elise, in a choice of normally-aspirated and Magnusson supercharged forms.
Body: Retain internal structure, windscreen and door glass, but replace steel outer bodywork with unique-to-Lotus glassfibre panels. Feature a 'rising waistline', partly because it's a trendy styling lick in the sector, but also as a nod to the Elite II of the Seventies. Replace the chunky conventional bootlid with a frameless glass hatch like the Volvo C30's. At the front, reprofile the nose, wings and bonnet along the lines of the Evora GTE, with the big, low, gaping grille, headlights tapering up the bonnet and air-extraction vents behind the engine.
Interior: Completely redesign the dashboard along the lines of the Bahar/Coco design concepts. Stylish and very high-quality, but still quite minimalist. Sweeping, narrow bar forming the dashboard, instruments in individual pods, nice leather bucket seats, same steering wheel, gearknob and handbrake lever as an Elise. I'm thinking lots of flashes of aluminium as a nod to the Elise's interior, but not overpoweringly everywhere, just nice little touches like the footrest on the passenger side, and drilled-aluminium pedals for the driver.
Marketing: Offer it in the full range of Lotus Grand Prix colour schemes - Original 'Team Lotus' BRG with a yellow grille surround and stripe running over the length of the car, 'Gold Leaf' with gold grille surround and bodywork in two-tone red over white, 'JPS/current Lotus-Renault' in all black with gold grille surround and body pinstriping, 'Essex' in blue with a silver grille surround and red side-stripes, and 'Camel' with a blue grille surround and the bodywork in yellow. This could also extend to the interior schemes (green hide with yellow stitching/white centre panels, red bolsters and gold stitching/black with gold stitching/red centre panel, blue bolsters and silver stitching/yellow with blue stitching). In addition offer cheaper models in ordinary Lotus/Proton colours.
Performance: Standard 1.6-litre Satria Neo is 1184kg with a 125bhp 1.6 Campro engine and steel body. Use of glassfibre should shave quite a lot off that, and the Lotus engine would add a choice of 142 or 220bhp depending on induction. The 142 will do for people who want something with acceptable running costs that's still sporty to drive, and that supercharged 220 engine will be capable of causing a Mini Cooper S some serious bother.
Pricing: They're at an advantage as it's based on a very cheap car. A basic Satria Neo is £8495 OTR. Given that its premium-hot-hatch rivals are about £18k-£25k, they can absorb the extensive modifications in a per-unit price of as much as £5k and still make a profit. Half-build it in Malaysia, ship the base units to Hethel and let Lotus do the rest. Sell it through Proton, Lotus and Toyota (given the origins of the engine) dealers.
So, take one of these:
Rework underpinnings along the lines of this:
Style bodywork as a nod to this:
And pitch it against this:
Well ... it was never gonna happen was it.
Lotus are the world leaders in moulding and producing fibre glass and composites .... so to expect them to suddenly start producing cars in the metal and to compete with the likes of the prancing horse and the bull thingy was hopelessly unrealistic.
Lotus can now get on with what they do well .... but hopefully a bit better.
Just add lightness.
Lotus are the world leaders in moulding and producing fibre glass and composites .... so to expect them to suddenly start producing cars in the metal and to compete with the likes of the prancing horse and the bull thingy was hopelessly unrealistic.
Lotus can now get on with what they do well .... but hopefully a bit better.
Just add lightness.
They need to be cheaper than the competion and faster than the competion, at the moment there trying to be as fast, and equally well built and equally expensive and it's not quite working out for them
Lotus best selling cars and most well known, have either been standout lookers (Orignal Wedge), clever or new executions of tried and tested design (Orignal Elan, Elise) or better than the competion performance or price wise (SE turbo Esprit)
There biggest failures have been poor performing cars, followed by unreliable ones, Europa (renault power), N/A Stevens Esprit (what were they thinking!), N/A S2 Elan (Again what were they thinking, who wants lotus runing costs and Mx5 power levels and performance!), Later base Elises, 1.6 (to slow, to expensive and arguably worse looking) and 1.8S (uninspired replacement for the K and were the rot started, with an engine devoid of any real tuning power compared to the K, a real handicap for a boarderline underpowered car to start with). Eclat, Elite (bad reliablity)
And Evora, great looks, but launched so late in the day and into a massive economic downturn no less (One of it's main downfalls IMO) and then a CEO who said we gonna kill it off soon, ohh and look at this Elan..... and to expensive, An S model lanched first at the current N/A price points and a CEO who said this is our new mid level car might have seen a better showing, but the timing was all wrong, had they got themselves sorted out and lanched something similar around the time of the M250, it would have been a differant story IMO
Lotus best selling cars and most well known, have either been standout lookers (Orignal Wedge), clever or new executions of tried and tested design (Orignal Elan, Elise) or better than the competion performance or price wise (SE turbo Esprit)
There biggest failures have been poor performing cars, followed by unreliable ones, Europa (renault power), N/A Stevens Esprit (what were they thinking!), N/A S2 Elan (Again what were they thinking, who wants lotus runing costs and Mx5 power levels and performance!), Later base Elises, 1.6 (to slow, to expensive and arguably worse looking) and 1.8S (uninspired replacement for the K and were the rot started, with an engine devoid of any real tuning power compared to the K, a real handicap for a boarderline underpowered car to start with). Eclat, Elite (bad reliablity)
And Evora, great looks, but launched so late in the day and into a massive economic downturn no less (One of it's main downfalls IMO) and then a CEO who said we gonna kill it off soon, ohh and look at this Elan..... and to expensive, An S model lanched first at the current N/A price points and a CEO who said this is our new mid level car might have seen a better showing, but the timing was all wrong, had they got themselves sorted out and lanched something similar around the time of the M250, it would have been a differant story IMO
Good one.Great Pretender said:
Jaged said:
bleunos said:
Why don't Lotus just build an affordable sports car instead of chasing Aston, Ferrari, Porsche?
They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
There seem to be a few PH'ers knocking your idea mate??They could build a new Élan cheaply by just shamelessly copying the Eunos Roadster, which was itself shamelessly ripped off from the Lotus Élan! What comes around and all that. I don't see how Lotus didn't spot this years ago!
A lightweight, simple, reliable, great handling, RWD,130bhp ish, 2 seater coupe / convertible for about £12k ish would sell really well, undercut the mx5 by a good few grand. It wouldn't need to be the last word in sophistication. Something along the lines of the new toybaru coupe but much cheaper!
Get that selling, refresh the Elise then if the F1 team are still doing well MAYBE start thinking about building bespoke V8's to put in a Ferrari chasing supercar.
Shame thay don't look at the Proton web site, as Proton's most expensive normal car is under £12k!
On the ROAD in the UK!
If I were the new owners, I'd knock all this Donny Bear s
te on the head and get them to put more resources into MY main brand and get a "Proton Lotus" on the road. A proper Proton Lotus!
Then I'd let Lotus loose on that new 2 seat sports car design you suggest, and we all want, but it will be made in the Proton Factory, not a shed in Norfolk.
Now having said that, the base Proton Lotus body parts (4 & 2 seater) will then be made available to Lotus Norfolk to build a "Lotus Proton" for the few select customers who want that bit "Extra"!
It would work IMHO and give everybody what they want?
In the mean time they can carry on with current models to keep things running, so the workforce can see what is coming and get ready for it.
For the Proton "Knockers", Proton Rally Team seem to be doing rather well lately.
KDIcarmad said:
If only I had won last night Lottery! There is clear a gap that you think Lotus could fill. A lower cost fun 4(2+2) seat sports car. A new company or a reborn older one could take over this gap.
I don't think Lotus want to go head-to-head with the GT86. They'd almost certainly lose. kambites said:
I don't think Lotus want to go head-to-head with the GT86. They'd almost certainly lose.
Basic laws of the universe state that if they go head to head with any mainstream manufacturer they will lose. Another law states that when you blow hundreds of millions you need a product that will sell in big numbers.
They are stuck horribly in a complete no man's land.
If they can pull off a drop dead gorgeous Esprit that beats the 911 on paper but costs Boxster money then I suspect they stand a chance of getting both volume and margin.
At the same time I do think they should be looking to use the brand as a tuning house for major brands in a more robust and coherent way.
The other question to ask is whether Lotus has the time or money to be playing around in the alt energy sphere? Tesla like all other indies has gone bust doing this. It's not a game they can afford to play.
However, I sadly think they will churn out an Esprit that looks fat and clumsy and is over priced and continue throwing money into R&D that can't generate yield for years.
I just think that if they can't make a shell that looks as stunning as a Lambo or Ferrari etc then they are finished as anything other than a cottage car builder for a niche market. Which is maybe te best place for them as there is certainly nothing wrong with that at all.
DonkeyApple said:
If they can pull off a drop dead gorgeous Esprit that beats the 911 on paper but costs Boxster money then I suspect they stand a chance of getting both volume and margin.
At the same time I do think they should be looking to use the brand as a tuning house for major brands in a more robust and coherent way.
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.At the same time I do think they should be looking to use the brand as a tuning house for major brands in a more robust and coherent way.
Don't forget, the Esprit was a seriously glamorous car in its day, routinely compared to Ferraris and Porsches, and proved the company's meal-ticket throughout most of its existence - in fact, in 1993 the Esprit was all they made.
And yes - I think there's definite mileage in Lotus becoming someone's AMG equivalent. They have a long and proud history of this. The Lotus Carlton, Escort Twin Cam, Cortina II Lotus, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus and Lotus Carlton were all world-beating cars in their own way (The Cortinas ruled Touring Cars, the Escort and Sunbeam won world rally championships and the Carlton was the fastest saloon of its day, capable of outrunning a Ferrari Testarossa). Hell, even the Lotus Satria GTI is the closest Proton has ever come to being cool. In a near-unbroken line from 1963 til 1993, there was usually at least one Lotus-tuned saloon or hatch you could buy (OK, so there was a big gap between the Cortina II Lotus and the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, but after that came the Isuzu Piazza, then the Carlton).
Only question is, which marque would best benefit from Lotus tuning? I actually quite like the idea of Lotus-tuned Vauxhalls. Not VXRs (which are basically Opel OPCs with UK-friendly steering and suspension rates), but Carlton-style hyper-Vauxhalls. Vauxhall already have a kind of mystique on the continent (mainly because the VXR8, Maloo and Monaro are only readily available in RHD Vauxhall forms), so why not play upon this and have a Vauxhall Lotus Insignia as an aftermarket tuning package with no Opel equivalent?
It'd give Vauxhall a bit more individuality, increase their USP and get Lotus some regular mass-market work in the bargain.
And then - and here's the real trick - once they have a good reputation for high performance, offer Opel versions, but still rebadge them as Vauxhalls.
Edited by Twincam16 on Thursday 2nd August 09:29
Twincam16 said:
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.
Don't forget, the Esprit was a seriously glamorous car in its day, routinely compared to Ferraris and Porsches, and proved the company's meal-ticket throughout most of its existence - in fact, in 1993 the Esprit was all they made.
Exactly. But the Esprit looked a very sleek and serious car. Don't forget, the Esprit was a seriously glamorous car in its day, routinely compared to Ferraris and Porsches, and proved the company's meal-ticket throughout most of its existence - in fact, in 1993 the Esprit was all they made.
I know I'll offend modern Lotus owners but the cars they produce today look childish. They look like toys and have no 'image'. Many will say that is part of what makes them so good but I'm afraid it is also why no one wants to buy one.
We live in a society where it needs to look good and whether it works is less important. Like Cheryl Cole. It can be the best performer out there but if it looks like Shane McGowan punters aren't going to be sticking up posters or filling their garages.
The Esprit needs to look mature, purposeful and elegant while being aggressive. Quite frankly it needs to be a punchy thug in a bespoke suit. Not a ballerina in a Burtons.
We can trust Lotus to get it to handle and drive well but they need to get some adults into the body design office.
Twincam16 said:
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.Scuffers said:
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.
But I do wonder if it would have sold more if the shape was more aggressive, more manly. Women seem to look at a Lotus and go 'ahhhhh, that's sweet'. Personally that's great for a Figarro but it's fatal if your designed sales target is men.
They need a car that portrays the image of walking into a bar, punching a bloke to the floor and carrying his girlfriend out over his shoulders.
They need to make the cars slightly larger and just more punchy in the looks department.
Scuffers said:
Twincam16 said:
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.DonkeyApple said:
Scuffers said:
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.
But I do wonder if it would have sold more if the shape was more aggressive, more manly. Women seem to look at a Lotus and go 'ahhhhh, that's sweet'. Personally that's great for a Figarro but it's fatal if your designed sales target is men.
They need a car that portrays the image of walking into a bar, punching a bloke to the floor and carrying his girlfriend out over his shoulders.
They need to make the cars slightly larger and just more punchy in the looks department.
Twincam16 said:
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.
Don't forget, the Esprit was a seriously glamorous car in its day, routinely compared to Ferraris and Porsches, and proved the company's meal-ticket throughout most of its existence - in fact, in 1993 the Esprit was all they made.
And yes - I think there's definite mileage in Lotus becoming someone's AMG equivalent. They have a long and proud history of this. The Lotus Carlton, Escort Twin Cam, Cortina II Lotus, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus and Lotus Carlton were all world-beating cars in their own way (The Cortinas ruled Touring Cars, the Escort and Sunbeam won world rally championships and the Carlton was the fastest saloon of its day, capable of outrunning a Ferrari Testarossa). Hell, even the Lotus Satria GTI is the closest Proton has ever come to being cool. In a near-unbroken line from 1963 til 1993, there was usually at least one Lotus-tuned saloon or hatch you could buy (OK, so there was a big gap between the Cortina II Lotus and the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, but after that came the Isuzu Piazza, then the Carlton).
Only question is, which marque would best benefit from Lotus tuning? I actually quite like the idea of Lotus-tuned Vauxhalls. Not VXRs (which are basically Opel OPCs with UK-friendly steering and suspension rates), but Carlton-style hyper-Vauxhalls. Vauxhall already have a kind of mystique on the continent (mainly because the VXR8, Maloo and Monaro are only readily available in RHD Vauxhall forms), so why not play upon this and have a Vauxhall Lotus Insignia as an aftermarket tuning package with no Opel equivalent?
It'd give Vauxhall a bit more individuality, increase their USP and get Lotus some regular mass-market work in the bargain.
And then - and here's the real trick - once they have a good reputation for high performance, offer Opel versions, but still rebadge them as Vauxhalls.
The real gamble and I think the smart move would be to affiliate with a slightly unconventional brand not one of the big established ones. Don't forget, the Esprit was a seriously glamorous car in its day, routinely compared to Ferraris and Porsches, and proved the company's meal-ticket throughout most of its existence - in fact, in 1993 the Esprit was all they made.
And yes - I think there's definite mileage in Lotus becoming someone's AMG equivalent. They have a long and proud history of this. The Lotus Carlton, Escort Twin Cam, Cortina II Lotus, Talbot Sunbeam Lotus and Lotus Carlton were all world-beating cars in their own way (The Cortinas ruled Touring Cars, the Escort and Sunbeam won world rally championships and the Carlton was the fastest saloon of its day, capable of outrunning a Ferrari Testarossa). Hell, even the Lotus Satria GTI is the closest Proton has ever come to being cool. In a near-unbroken line from 1963 til 1993, there was usually at least one Lotus-tuned saloon or hatch you could buy (OK, so there was a big gap between the Cortina II Lotus and the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, but after that came the Isuzu Piazza, then the Carlton).
Only question is, which marque would best benefit from Lotus tuning? I actually quite like the idea of Lotus-tuned Vauxhalls. Not VXRs (which are basically Opel OPCs with UK-friendly steering and suspension rates), but Carlton-style hyper-Vauxhalls. Vauxhall already have a kind of mystique on the continent (mainly because the VXR8, Maloo and Monaro are only readily available in RHD Vauxhall forms), so why not play upon this and have a Vauxhall Lotus Insignia as an aftermarket tuning package with no Opel equivalent?
It'd give Vauxhall a bit more individuality, increase their USP and get Lotus some regular mass-market work in the bargain.
And then - and here's the real trick - once they have a good reputation for high performance, offer Opel versions, but still rebadge them as Vauxhalls.
Edited by Twincam16 on Thursday 2nd August 09:29
I'd pick an up and coming marque from the Far East. It's where the money is, it's where the margins are and it's where the big companies have ambition and a drive to get their brand up amongst the European makers.
Twincam16 said:
Scuffers said:
Twincam16 said:
Interesting how nearly all the mags have pointed out that, on track, the new Exige V6S beats or at the very least matches a 911 GT3. It costs top-end Boxster/Cayman money, but if Lotus follow the same philosophy with the Esprit and train its targets on, say, the Gallardo, they could be onto a winner.
if you cast your minds back they said exactly the same about the Evora....... that went well.What makes you think they comments now on the Exige S are any better grounded?
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