Is fuel economy blown way out of proportion?
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
I accept all your well-made points. But he made the switch away from one of the all-time greats for financial reasons, but chose a car that would take two years to be any cheaper week-in week-out than a BMW M5. That sounds like a strange decision.
Not strange at all. The Skoda is a Superb Greenline which was only available from 2011. I was faced with the choice of buying a year old one or a new one for the same price (as Skoda were and still are running the VAT off deal on the model). The reason I wanted that car is because I wanted a large car with lots of space and toys that was still able to get 60mpg (which it does, I've even an 80mpg on my extra-urban 7 mile commute), be £30 road tax and have soft squigy comfy and cheap tyres.So I went from a car that does 20mpg to one that does 60mpg. Add onto that the insurance (group 20 at £600 a year to group 5 at £200 a year), the tyres (£800 a set that last 15k on average vs £240 a set that last 40-50k on average) and you can see the savings. The M5, whilst considered by some to be 'one of the all time greats' can be a total pain in the arse. Off I go to a meeting in Newcastle and I have to fill the thing 3 times in one day at £100 a tank. That gets boring pretty quick.
Buying the brand new car is, oddly, an investment. I am spending the money now in order to spend far less in the future. I could have bought a Passat Bluemotion for half the money with 40k on it and been better off yes but I have the advantage of a new car speced just how I wanted it and that I can run for quite some time.
Cemesis said:
SpeckledJim said:
I accept all your well-made points. But he made the switch away from one of the all-time greats for financial reasons, but chose a car that would take two years to be any cheaper week-in week-out than a BMW M5. That sounds like a strange decision.
Not strange at all. The Skoda is a Superb Greenline which was only available from 2011. I was faced with the choice of buying a year old one or a new one for the same price (as Skoda were and still are running the VAT off deal on the model). The reason I wanted that car is because I wanted a large car with lots of space and toys that was still able to get 60mpg (which it does, I've even an 80mpg on my extra-urban 7 mile commute), be £30 road tax and have soft squigy comfy and cheap tyres.So I went from a car that does 20mpg to one that does 60mpg. Add onto that the insurance (group 20 at £600 a year to group 5 at £200 a year), the tyres (£800 a set that last 15k on average vs £240 a set that last 40-50k on average) and you can see the savings. The M5, whilst considered by some to be 'one of the all time greats' can be a total pain in the arse. Off I go to a meeting in Newcastle and I have to fill the thing 3 times in one day at £100 a tank. That gets boring pretty quick.
Buying the brand new car is, oddly, an investment. I am spending the money now in order to spend far less in the future. I could have bought a Passat Bluemotion for half the money with 40k on it and been better off yes but I have the advantage of a new car speced just how I wanted it and that I can run for quite some time.
A couple of folk at work thought I "must be mental" for going from a Clio 200 to an E36 328i as a daily. Even when I explained the fuel economy was about the same, the insurance was hundreds cheaper (classic policy) and there was effectively no depreciation, they just didn't believe me.
I think people fail to take into account the price differential between petrol and diesel cars and how long it will take to make up the difference.
A case in point is my Granddad, whom I helped buy a new car earlier this month. I managed to steer him away from a lightly used E92 320d and into an E92 320i, which was a good bit cheaper, doesn't sound like a tractor and is much more suited to the 5,000 miles he does per annum.
A case in point is my Granddad, whom I helped buy a new car earlier this month. I managed to steer him away from a lightly used E92 320d and into an E92 320i, which was a good bit cheaper, doesn't sound like a tractor and is much more suited to the 5,000 miles he does per annum.
Edited by David87 on Friday 29th March 23:54
V88Dicky said:
I find it strange that the same people who wouldn't bat an eyelid doing, say, 15k per year in a 50mpg car, simply can't believe that some people would do 7.5k per year in a 25mpg car.
Much sucking of air through teeth and rolling of eyes from them.
Wonderfully put! Much sucking of air through teeth and rolling of eyes from them.
I don't dispute if you do higher mileage swapping from an m5 to a frugal diesel is the right move but I'm struggling to understand why it was a brand new diesel that will loose 15k in 3 years.
I know in the skoda example there was a reason for wanting a car spec-ed exactly to the owners wishes. Seems similar to putting a price on the fun of a v8/v10 although the scale is different.
Buying an xfr would ring alarm bells on the depreciation front too. They do loose an awful lot, but I always buy 3-4 years old, with a manufacturers warranty. Staggeringly my fully loaded xfr has lost so much it was purchased at 35% its original list price. I still expect it to loose 2-3k per year.
Even if we consider running costs bought up in the overall picture, I have a 3 year jaguar service plan worth £747 so my yearly servicing is £249 which includes MOTs. Tyres are £215 a piece, tax yes £490, insurance suprisingly cheap at £362 p/a.
I'm paying a lot less than someone financing a 30k brand new diesel, even with fuel. But people focus so much on the mpg number.
I do feel its straying from the issue slightly as we know brand new v old has been done to death.
But considering that, a supposedly money pit really isn't much more costly than your typical family diesel, even more so when you are talking about a slightly older v8 motor.
This all goes out the window when you buy a new 72k xfr or m3.
When you really work it out you realise 21mpg v 35mpg, not such a great deal. The rav4 has already lost 7k in 1 year, but its about £50 cheaper on fuel. People see that as a real money saving, yet my xfr will probably loose 3k this next year.
If I needed to do high miles again I would sell the xfr and buy a 4-5k audi a4 1.9tdi and another e46 m3 for the weekend
My last two cars have been owned outright and haven't been new in the slightest so there's very little depreciation.
I don't smoke. Or drink.
My old 306 would usually return between 25 and 30MPG and a full tank, usually close to £80 would get me around 320-335 miles a tank. I 'upgraded' to a Seat leon Cupra which costs less to fill, usually about £73-£75 and has returned an average, measured by on board trip counter (which I know often are a little enthusiastic) as 32-33MPG and I've even managed 360 miles to a tank. That's on VPower which seems to give me around 25-30 miles more per tank.
Could i afford to drive something that struggles to get 25MPG+? Possibly. As it is I need around a tank and 3/4 a month. if I had the money would i run something fruitier? No doubt, but I'd still feel crap putting £160-£200 a month into it in fuel alone.
I don't smoke. Or drink.
My old 306 would usually return between 25 and 30MPG and a full tank, usually close to £80 would get me around 320-335 miles a tank. I 'upgraded' to a Seat leon Cupra which costs less to fill, usually about £73-£75 and has returned an average, measured by on board trip counter (which I know often are a little enthusiastic) as 32-33MPG and I've even managed 360 miles to a tank. That's on VPower which seems to give me around 25-30 miles more per tank.
Could i afford to drive something that struggles to get 25MPG+? Possibly. As it is I need around a tank and 3/4 a month. if I had the money would i run something fruitier? No doubt, but I'd still feel crap putting £160-£200 a month into it in fuel alone.
busta said:
Worrying about fuel economy is for poor people 
Not quite - if you get into your supercar intent on heading for the South of France and discover that you have to find a petrol station every 90mins or less - you WILL have a f
king miserable drive.You can't enjoy it, because any trips off the beaten track will come with the risk of running out of fuel so you'll stay on the motorways and you'll be scanning for fuel stations like a man stranded in a desert looks at mirages...
Not being an elitist prick about it - MPG is about using you car as a tool and not a toy - anyone actually covering any distance WILL care about economy/tank size in their car, just as anyone with kids/dogs cares about back seat space/boot space/whether the plastics hold doghairs ;0
TO think otherwise is to think that there's one perfect car and we know there isn't - it's actualy a good thing there isn't.
405dogvan said:
Not quite - if you get into your supercar intent on heading for the South of France and discover that you have to find a petrol station every 90mins or less - you WILL have a fking miserable drive.
You can't enjoy it, because any trips off the beaten track will come with the risk of running out of fuel so you'll stay on the motorways and you'll be scanning for fuel stations like a man stranded in a desert looks at mirages...
Not being an elitist prick about it - MPG is about using you car as a tool and not a toy - anyone actually covering any distance WILL care about economy/tank size in their car, just as anyone with kids/dogs cares about back seat space/boot space/whether the plastics hold doghairs ;0
TO think otherwise is to think that there's one perfect car and we know there isn't - it's actualy a good thing there isn't.
So when was the last time your 458 sputtered to a halt on a French mountain pass?king miserable drive.You can't enjoy it, because any trips off the beaten track will come with the risk of running out of fuel so you'll stay on the motorways and you'll be scanning for fuel stations like a man stranded in a desert looks at mirages...
Not being an elitist prick about it - MPG is about using you car as a tool and not a toy - anyone actually covering any distance WILL care about economy/tank size in their car, just as anyone with kids/dogs cares about back seat space/boot space/whether the plastics hold doghairs ;0
TO think otherwise is to think that there's one perfect car and we know there isn't - it's actualy a good thing there isn't.
bp1000 said:
Wonderfully put!
I don't dispute if you do higher mileage swapping from an m5 to a frugal diesel is the right move but I'm struggling to understand why it was a brand new diesel that will loose 15k in 3 years.
I know in the skoda example there was a reason for wanting a car spec-ed exactly to the owners wishes. Seems similar to putting a price on the fun of a v8/v10 although the scale is different.
My sums at the time worked out that the M5 would cost £8000 a year in total. The Skoda would cost about £3k plus repayments which makes it about the same. However , after 2 years the M5 would have risen to £10,000 a year making the difference between the two cars nearly £600 a month and the Skoda would still be worth more.I don't dispute if you do higher mileage swapping from an m5 to a frugal diesel is the right move but I'm struggling to understand why it was a brand new diesel that will loose 15k in 3 years.
I know in the skoda example there was a reason for wanting a car spec-ed exactly to the owners wishes. Seems similar to putting a price on the fun of a v8/v10 although the scale is different.
That extra cash to me is the difference between living in a 250k house or a 500k house. It's not 'fun' to always be reaching into your pocket to pay out on your car.
SpeckledJim said:
Yup. At less than say 8-10k per year, a nice luxury car that has done the vast bulk of its depreciating, yet has a large engine and is worth, say, £5k, will probably be cheaper to own over a few years than a £5k 1.6 hatchback that's heading rapidly towards a retail value of £450.
Thankfully, almost nobody has done these sums and it is still a huge, huge secret. So shush!
Hence I have a 330Ci for my 8k London miles pa Thankfully, almost nobody has done these sums and it is still a huge, huge secret. So shush!
Attitudes from the plebiscites are certainly very skewed.
I bought a 9 year old V8 Jeep ("A Jeep, that must be hard to run. What is she like on diesel? It's petrol? Big thirsty 2 litre? 5 LITRES?!) that has depreciated to a point where it's now worth 8% of what it cost new and will probably be close to the same in a year's time.
It costs me 26 pence a mile in fuel, and do around 10k per annum of personal mileage. £2711 per annum on fuel. It's needs serviced once a year at a cost of £90 (£130 every second with plugs). Tax is £270. So £3080 on average.
A colleague just bought a 2012 Golf Bluemotion for £17000.
If he does 10k per annum and getting his claimed 51mpg it costs him £1272 on fuel. Tax is £30. Servicing £149. He'll lose (let's be generous) £2k in depreciation. So £3451 to run his car this year.
Yet he and the majority of those I work with think that I'm the frivolous one.
I bought a 9 year old V8 Jeep ("A Jeep, that must be hard to run. What is she like on diesel? It's petrol? Big thirsty 2 litre? 5 LITRES?!) that has depreciated to a point where it's now worth 8% of what it cost new and will probably be close to the same in a year's time.
It costs me 26 pence a mile in fuel, and do around 10k per annum of personal mileage. £2711 per annum on fuel. It's needs serviced once a year at a cost of £90 (£130 every second with plugs). Tax is £270. So £3080 on average.
A colleague just bought a 2012 Golf Bluemotion for £17000.
If he does 10k per annum and getting his claimed 51mpg it costs him £1272 on fuel. Tax is £30. Servicing £149. He'll lose (let's be generous) £2k in depreciation. So £3451 to run his car this year.
Yet he and the majority of those I work with think that I'm the frivolous one.
Art0ir said:
Attitudes from the plebiscites are certainly very skewed.
I bought a 9 year old V8 Jeep ("A Jeep, that must be hard to run. What is she like on diesel? It's petrol? Big thirsty 2 litre? 5 LITRES?!) that has depreciated to a point where it's now worth 8% of what it cost new and will probably be close to the same in a year's time.
It costs me 26 pence a mile in fuel, and do around 10k per annum of personal mileage. £2711 per annum on fuel. It's needs serviced once a year at a cost of £90 (£130 every second with plugs). Tax is £270. So £3080 on average.
A colleague just bought a 2012 Golf Bluemotion for £17000.
If he does 10k per annum and getting his claimed 51mpg it costs him £1272 on fuel. Tax is £30. Servicing £149. He'll lose (let's be generous) £2k in depreciation. So £3451 to run his car this year.
Yet he and the majority of those I work with think that I'm the frivolous one.
Snap - almost - we have 13 year old 4.7v8 jeep. have done over 30kmiles in the 2 years we've had it funded by mrs R1's fule card and a bit of tax on that.I bought a 9 year old V8 Jeep ("A Jeep, that must be hard to run. What is she like on diesel? It's petrol? Big thirsty 2 litre? 5 LITRES?!) that has depreciated to a point where it's now worth 8% of what it cost new and will probably be close to the same in a year's time.
It costs me 26 pence a mile in fuel, and do around 10k per annum of personal mileage. £2711 per annum on fuel. It's needs serviced once a year at a cost of £90 (£130 every second with plugs). Tax is £270. So £3080 on average.
A colleague just bought a 2012 Golf Bluemotion for £17000.
If he does 10k per annum and getting his claimed 51mpg it costs him £1272 on fuel. Tax is £30. Servicing £149. He'll lose (let's be generous) £2k in depreciation. So £3451 to run his car this year.
Yet he and the majority of those I work with think that I'm the frivolous one.
Now the fuel card has gone - the mileage dropped and I still cant make the maths work to swap if for an econobox so we continue to waft on!
BTW - not sure of you've missed the cost of addblue (piss) to the Golf calc
V400TC said:
I consider not Smoking and Drinking by choice a good trade off for
20MPG V8 27MPG V6 and 34MPG 4 cylinder
the only issue now in our house is whose car we can take next
the 4 cylinder never gets picked unless we are collecting building materials.
when we run out of money then we will worry.
until then
But you are ruining the environment, it is a proven fact that v8 cars are behind the melting of the ice caps. For every V8 car off the road 1 iceberg lasts another 12 days at sea. Cant you see how selfish you are being. Have you considered cycling? I am even prepared to lend you a new bike.20MPG V8 27MPG V6 and 34MPG 4 cylinder
the only issue now in our house is whose car we can take next
the 4 cylinder never gets picked unless we are collecting building materials.
when we run out of money then we will worry.
until then
Fuel, servicing, depreciation and finance (if applicable)
Most people ignore at least two of these when buying a car. I can understand why people get so het up about mpg, its the most tangible recurring cost, but as others have already stated, car ownership needs to be looked at holistically.
Most people ignore at least two of these when buying a car. I can understand why people get so het up about mpg, its the most tangible recurring cost, but as others have already stated, car ownership needs to be looked at holistically.
Edited by thekingisdead on Saturday 30th March 07:27
thekingisdead said:
Fuel, servicing, depreciation and finance (if applicable)
Most people ignore at least two of these when buying a car. I can understand why people get so het up about mpg, its the most tangible cost, but as others have already stated, car ownership needs to be looked at holistically.
Very good point. I was amazed when working in sales the amount of customers that changed their car due to the fuel consumption being too high. They would change for example from a 61 plate mondeo 1.8 to a mondeo 2.0 tdci and this would cost them £3500, for people with a normal annual mileage this just seemed to be lunacy.Most people ignore at least two of these when buying a car. I can understand why people get so het up about mpg, its the most tangible cost, but as others have already stated, car ownership needs to be looked at holistically.
All depends on the miles. It gets very boring very quickly doing a commute in a thirsty car with all the best intentions in the World. More than anything, visiting petrol stations is a PITA.
Fuel prices are only going one way and you could of course argue that you can't really enjoy a car on the commute, indeed you can lose the love of the car. That's why it's good to have a special weekend car that remains special and one that you don't take out in a daily traffic jam.
Fuel prices are only going one way and you could of course argue that you can't really enjoy a car on the commute, indeed you can lose the love of the car. That's why it's good to have a special weekend car that remains special and one that you don't take out in a daily traffic jam.
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