RE: AMG and Aston Martin tie the knot

RE: AMG and Aston Martin tie the knot

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Wills2

22,669 posts

174 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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British Beef said:
Plus, imagine (if the 6.3lt Merc motor was not to be discontinued) having that lump in the AMV8 with a manual box!!
6.2ltr


Well someone had to correct you.

Gorbyrev

1,160 posts

153 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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Surely this will also guarantee that AM have access to the latest transmissions. Much grumbling has been done over the lack of the game changing 8 speed ZF auto being denied to Bond and co.

PiloteAM

864 posts

209 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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I think all Astons currently have rear mounted gearboxes, not sure if the ZF has been used in that way?

Either way it's been used on a lot of engines, so doubt that's the problem.

Overall I think this is a good idea. Aston's current V8 is quite thirsty for its power output.

Mastodon2

13,818 posts

164 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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Speedraser said:
Why, oh why, do so many of you think that someone else's engine in an Aston is the only way to go confused

Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car. I'm not saying that this is what's pending, but no one here knows yet. No, Aston (presumably) doesn't have the money to develop a ground up new engine, but they have just gotten some very considerable investment -- and "access" to AMG tech. Use that properly and strengthen Aston Martin, and don't take the easy and less-expensive path and risk destroying its heritage.

To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own. However, an Aston with a "retuned" AMG engine would be the beginning of the end of Aston Martin IMO, and would ensure that I would not buy another new one.
They have to make money to secure further investment, and pay their creditors to avoid going bust. If they spend their money making "unique" engines by adding frivolous changes to tried and tested engines there won't be any cars to put these amazing engines in. I would imagine that AM would probably make some changes, minor, superficial ones that make the engines look different, something to really sell the idea of a "unique" engine on to the customer in the showroom, but the changes will be superficial and little more - AM don't have the nouse or the money to go making big changes to AMG technology.

iloveboost

1,531 posts

161 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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I understand peoples concerns that this is the beginning of the end for Aston Martin but it's just a new chapter in their history and will help them survive future emissions regulations. As well as securing well developed engines they have secured their future as well.
Also reduced development costs for Aston Martin and no extra development costs for AMG yet more sales volume means that both are more assured of a bright future supporting each other. I think it's a good thing for petrolheads, and could turn out to be the best partnership since cheese and tomato.

peter450

1,650 posts

232 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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Dont know what the problems is here, had the V8 vantage packed the 6 + litre V8 from AMG, it would have been even more successful and an even better car, the current V8 is fine dont get me wrong, but the AMG unit was a lot more powerful

The current 5.5 litre NA V8 is not quite as much of a beast as the above but it's still around 420hp and almost 400 lbft of torque so usefully more powerful than the current engine aswell

At the end of the day Aston needed to do something, Jaguars XK is a very impressive car with modern transmission and 500 + Hp supercharged V8, a new one is due at some point and will no doubt be a step up on the already very good current car, and the XK8 is not the only other good car in that bracket, you have the 911, Gran Turismo the list goes on.

And despite what some people think, just sticking the AM badge on the bonnet does not equal automatic success, while you might get some people buying just the badge, with so many quality cars in those price brackets most buyers want a bit more substance.

I quite like the V8 Vantage and this deal means i'm probably going still be liking it 2 years from now, and Astons cars will still be impressing 2 years from now

Battlecat

944 posts

237 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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Good news for certain I think. AM can only benefit as AMG will bring AMs out of borrowed time territory (engine technology wise).

Gadgeroonie

5,362 posts

235 months

Thursday 19th December 2013
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the engine is such an important part of a car like an Aston - the character of the car is about the engine

if they wanted more power - then supercharge them !

it seems to me this is all about the markets abroad and not the uk market

Aston have sold out imho




bobberz

1,832 posts

198 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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Gadgeroonie said:
the engine is such an important part of a car like an Aston - the character of the car is about the engine

if they wanted more power - then supercharge them !

it seems to me this is all about the markets abroad and not the uk market

Aston have sold out imho
I'm no business major, but I'd imagine if car companies made cars only for the UK market, they would've gone out of business a long time ago. Let's face it, MG, Triumph, Austin-Healey, Jaguar, and Aston-Martin all survived as long as they did/have largely due to demand from American sports car nuts. I can't remember whether it was MG or Triumph, or what the exact numbers were, but I recall that a massive percentage of British sports cars were sold in America and only a comparative handful in the UK. Britain is a tiny country. It would be asinine for A-M to ignore huge countries full of cash-gorged residents like the US, China, Russia, and India just to please a minority of people in a tiny island nation.

So, yes, it is all about markets abroad. If Aston sold out, that happened in 1964 when some hairy lorry driver drove one in a heist film and thank God for that! If Goldfinger and the DB5 didn't shoot to superstardom in America, I'd wager a guess that Aston-Martin would've gone the same way as Austin-Healey, Triumph, MG, Daimler, Sunbeam, etc.....

I know how you feel; GM killed off a resurgent Pontiac as opposed to Buick, because Buick, though unloved in America, is a huge hit in China. It was a move that alienated some American enthusiasts, but it was a business decision that should grow GM's worldwide market share in the long run. Does that mean they're sellouts? If selling Buicks to the Chinese means I'll still be able to buy Corvettes and Camaros in 2030, that's good for me in the long run.



bobberz

1,832 posts

198 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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loudlashadjuster said:
I think the choice is between an Aston Martin that uses tweaked AMG engines or no Aston Martin at all. They don't have the cash to make compliant versions of big engines like these on such small volumes.

As I've said before, I expect the tie-up to stretch eventually to the V12s as well. AM will provide useful additional volume that makes continued development of the their V12 viable. No other manufacturer is in that position so without Aston Martin as customer, Mercedes-Benz would be forced over time to spend prohibitive amounts on each V12 or just drop them altogether.

Aston buys them some time and the investment shows they are keen to try and grow the business and perhaps invest more in years to come. After all, Daimler backed out of the Maybach affair with their tail between their legs. Maybe a new V12 Lagonda in 4 or 5 years is just what the group needs to take on Rolls-Royce & Bentley?
That sounds like a folly waiting to occur. The previous attempts at reviving Lagonda have never turned out well. They should just leave Lagonda alone. Very few brand revivals have ever worked long-term, for a number of reasons I won't go into here. Maybach, Lagonda, Frazer-Nash, Veritas, Spyker, and Bugatti, as well as Packard, Duesenberg, Stutz, Indian Motorcycles, Excelsior-Henderson Motorcycles and a few others in the US. Out of those, Spyker has been struggling, Bugatti failed before VW put their financial might behind them, and I haven't heard any news about Veritas since it was on Top Gear, and Indian has had more deaths and resurrections than Goku from Dragonball Z!

It's a popular thing to do in Europe and America. We think: "here's this brand with so much heritage, it should be given another chance". Unfortunately, it seems reviving a decades-dormant car company is about as risky as starting a new one from the ground-up.



P4ROT

1,219 posts

192 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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This is probably a good thing tbh (IMHO) - I'll accept anything that keeps Aston in business and which allows them to continue producing their stunning vehicles - Although, it would be painful if we lose the amazing Cosworth V12 bow

Speedraser

1,656 posts

182 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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gary71 said:
The sad reality is it's either Aston Martin with tweaked AMG engines or no Aston Martin at all.

We have been here before when the DB7 first appeared with a tweaked Jag six and it was declared as the death knell of the brand.

It all worked out OK in the end and saved the company.
irked Tweaked AMG or nothing??? That's just completely absurd. What a bunch of wimps too many of you are.

Aston is not all by itself anymore! There has been a LOT of money invested in them very recently, and there is now a partnership in place with a major manufacturer. Daimler-Benz has a few Deutschmarks!

The DB7 arrived after Aston very nearly went under, having sold (IIRC) barely more than 40 cars in 1993. The DB7 was based on the XJS, and it saved the company. Afterwards, Ford did the right thing, spent the money, and developed the current line of Astons that have their own platform and their own engines. The VH chassis concept is superb, and is still extremely competitive with anything else out there. They developed the new engines and saved money by starting with (for the V8) the Jaguar engine -- and then created an Aston Martin engine, which shares nothing with the Jaguar engine -- yet was developed for far less money than a ground up engine would have cost. The current cars were quite profitable! The notion that this couldn't be done again is preposterous.

Mercedes-Benz could absolutely do the same thing. They could be good custodians of Aston Martin. They simply have to have enough respect for Aston Martin -- its heritage and its future -- to do so. It wouldn't be the cheapest way, but the cheapest way CANNOT be the best way for Aston Martin.

Merely tweaked AMG engines would be horribly sad. AMG-based bespoke Aston engines would be wonderful.

redroadster

1,729 posts

231 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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New jaguar v8 has the sound now to beat aston at a far lower price .

loudlashadjuster

5,084 posts

183 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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Speedraser said:
Stuff
Does it actually matter though? If the AMG engines in Astons sound unique and have their own character, who cares if they share a block, inlet manifold, water pump, crank sensor or bolt with other AMG engines? How would you even know, unless they tell you?

Do you extend this concern to other components? Do you hate the fact that AM buy gearboxes from ZF that are - shock - also used in lesser cars?

What about the Bosch engine management? It's not bespoke and is also used on humdrum saloons and the like.

Are you enraged that they still use hopelessly outdated Visteon/Volvo audio and navigation?

Tyres? How dare Aston use tyres that other manufacturers fit?!

Yes, the engine is the 'heart' of a car, but in these days of electronic throttles, sound symposers and piped audio an engine can be made to sound and react like pretty much anything the manufacturer wants it to. I'm sure Astons will still have a unique character whether the engines have 95% or 5% commonality with other AMG units.

I'd far rather have an Aston that has a competitive, hand-built engine mated to a great transmission if that meant modern telematics and a move away from the slight whiff of desperation that always seems to pervades them.

thatdude

2,654 posts

126 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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I think this is great news. Bimota (a motorcycle manufacturer for those that may not know) always took (take?) engines from other suppliers and wrapped them up in their own chassis and bodywork. Most of the time*, it was an excellent outcome



.*The v-due was meant to be good but was crap, and there was also the mantra.


Madkat

1,147 posts

171 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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Great news i think, in the grand scheme of things anyway. I mean not every single component on an Aston will be entirely designed and manufactured by them. Granted the 'heart' of the car is somewhat a big one but if it means better developed overall cars freeing up Aston some money to spend elsewhere or to put back into making sure they survive it can only be a good thing.

Just so long as AMG don't try and start pulling too many strings or undermining Astons engine's to benefit the Merc's i think it's the way forward.

matsoc

853 posts

131 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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I am probably part of a minority but I perceive Aston Martin like a brand with great legacy with a precise engine configuration (GT with front engined V12) in a way that just Ferrari does (adding NA, which is something that also recent Aston have).

Enzo Ferrari himself imagined his cars like that and I know that Ferrari will always try to put on market one flagship model front engined with a NA V12 just like the F12.

Aston is not selling that well worlwide recently but I personally know people in Italy that are waiting for another front engined V12 Aston and nothing else. I mean, there are some very conservative customer. AMG SLS has been a great car with brutal performances but I can't imagine a man living near me that owned a DB7 V12 and a DB9 buying one, the SLS looks so gross in comparison.

I hope the new owners of Aston will understand the brand and the importance of a V12. The styling is still exceptional I believe even if a new direction could be taken in one of the future models.

Drakey52

115 posts

140 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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I understand there is a new V12 in the pipeline....whether it makes the grade given the AMG options available is probably the question. The V8's make total sense for all the reasons already mentioned on this thread.

f328nvl

507 posts

217 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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Why are people getting emotional about V12 Astons? They are a recent phenomenon, DB7 Vantage only started in 1999. V8s in the 70/80s and straight sixes in the 50/60s were perfectly fine for James Bond and The Persuaders.

At one point I owned both a 1989 V8 Vantage Volante and a 2000 V12 DB7 Vantage and didn't go on to DB9/AMV8 because:
a) DB9 wasn't exciting enough,(Bamboo interior?) and;
b) V8V was just under powered when it first came out.

I bought a C63 AMG instead. It's not as cool and I don't love it like I loved the DB7, but by Christ its fast.

The same attitude to power from the AMG in a new Vantage/Volante and you'll have a lot of fun.

Carl_Docklands

12,103 posts

261 months

Friday 20th December 2013
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If its good enough to go into a Pagani, its good enough to go into an Aston.