RE: Aston Martin Vanquish MY15: Review
Discussion
RacerMike said:
DonkeyApple. Really not sure I get what you're saying here. I'm with E65Ross on this one. There are no significant hardware and software changes to the PCM on these engines between an older 6HP and an 8HP. Any subtle differences are due to improvements in power delivery smoothing and emissions regs and are unconnected to the transmission.
For instance, the AJ133 in the Jags didn't change in the XFR between the 6HP and 8HP application. You can still very much 'lug' in gear by using 4th instead of 3rd. Honestly, when you're driving the 8HP, the only difference you subjectively notice is that there are more gears left when you finish driving on a B Road to shift in to top. The rest of the time, the car feels near enough identical and you still end up using about 3 gears for most of the time. An excellent example of the similarity would be at the 'Ring. The short blast at Brunchen where everyone watches STILL results in the car hitting the limiter, or an awkward shift into the next gear only to change down straight away.OK, maybe it hits the limiter slightly earlier in 3rd gear than it does in the 6HP car, but it's hardly even measurable.
I wouldn't listen too much to the original 'reason' given by Aston about keeping the 6HP....why would their marketing team say any different? It's not like they were going to say: 'Yeah, you're right. 8 speeds would make the car better, and in fact, if you're in the market now for a Vanquish, why not wait 10 months and you'll be able to get that gearbox in the car'. 'Marketing departments' and 'Telling the Truth about technology' are not two phrases you'll ever see in a sentance....
All I'll say, is I have literally never, ever, heard anyone get out of a car with an 8HP in and said, yeah, it's good, but I'd rather than the 6HP and in fact, whilst I'm at it, why not a 4 speed. It's night and day a better transmission. It does everything a 6HP did and a whole lot more.
Please find where I have said 6 is better than 8. For instance, the AJ133 in the Jags didn't change in the XFR between the 6HP and 8HP application. You can still very much 'lug' in gear by using 4th instead of 3rd. Honestly, when you're driving the 8HP, the only difference you subjectively notice is that there are more gears left when you finish driving on a B Road to shift in to top. The rest of the time, the car feels near enough identical and you still end up using about 3 gears for most of the time. An excellent example of the similarity would be at the 'Ring. The short blast at Brunchen where everyone watches STILL results in the car hitting the limiter, or an awkward shift into the next gear only to change down straight away.OK, maybe it hits the limiter slightly earlier in 3rd gear than it does in the 6HP car, but it's hardly even measurable.
I wouldn't listen too much to the original 'reason' given by Aston about keeping the 6HP....why would their marketing team say any different? It's not like they were going to say: 'Yeah, you're right. 8 speeds would make the car better, and in fact, if you're in the market now for a Vanquish, why not wait 10 months and you'll be able to get that gearbox in the car'. 'Marketing departments' and 'Telling the Truth about technology' are not two phrases you'll ever see in a sentance....
All I'll say, is I have literally never, ever, heard anyone get out of a car with an 8HP in and said, yeah, it's good, but I'd rather than the 6HP and in fact, whilst I'm at it, why not a 4 speed. It's night and day a better transmission. It does everything a 6HP did and a whole lot more.
Edited by RacerMike on Thursday 14th August 12:13
Please find where I have said I prefer less than 8.
Please find where I have said anything negative about the 8.
Please find where I haven't said that Aston's reason wasn't an excuse.
All I am saying is that as we add more gears the 'experience' of driving will catagorically change. If you take it to the ultimate end of constant rpm then the car will sound like a genny, which is obviously terrible. As such, we know that as we follow this trend we will reach the point that we lose the wonderful noise of something like a Ferrari V12 climbing through a rev range and all the notes, tones, frequency that we love. Ergo, there is a debate as to how many gears it will take to make this change.
Please note that I have never made any statement as to what I think although I suspect that Mercs 9 speed must be getting close to leading to a loss of character but we'll have to wait and see. But we can see a sudden shift in closing ratios between the 6 and 8 which should be a little warning for all petrolheads.
DonkeyApple said:
No. Not saying any of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you understand what I am saying about noise then that is it!!!!!! That's all it is. It's that simple.
As more gears are added so the noise band will reduce as the range of revs over which the engine will be operating will reduce, given a similar similar speed range. This can be seen by the narrowing of the ratios in the shift over time of modern boxes as per the chart I put up. It is very basic mathematics.
Aston said, last year, that the reason they were sticking with 6 speeds was as they said it made for a better driving experience than 8. That is all.
In addition, it is also obvious that as more gears are added so you trend to constant velocity. So there is a clear debate or discussion as to at what point does an increase in gears start to not benefit the driving experience? I've not made any judgement. I don't know why you think I have. Aston have said 6.
If it's just about the noise then why did you mention all the clap trap about engine timing and torque curves etc? If you understand what I am saying about noise then that is it!!!!!! That's all it is. It's that simple.
As more gears are added so the noise band will reduce as the range of revs over which the engine will be operating will reduce, given a similar similar speed range. This can be seen by the narrowing of the ratios in the shift over time of modern boxes as per the chart I put up. It is very basic mathematics.
Aston said, last year, that the reason they were sticking with 6 speeds was as they said it made for a better driving experience than 8. That is all.
In addition, it is also obvious that as more gears are added so you trend to constant velocity. So there is a clear debate or discussion as to at what point does an increase in gears start to not benefit the driving experience? I've not made any judgement. I don't know why you think I have. Aston have said 6.
You realise Aston only said that about 6 gears was because of the fact they didn't want buyers to know they were going to use the 8 speed box soon, don't you? They also said performance gains and economy gains were negligible... Which clearly was a load of crap.
DonkeyApple said:
All I am saying is that as we add more gears the 'experience' of driving will catagorically change. If you take it to the ultimate end of constant rpm then the car will sound like a genny, which is obviously terrible. As such, we know that as we follow this trend we will reach the point that we lose the wonderful noise of something like a Ferrari V12 climbing through a rev range and all the notes, tones, frequency that we love. Ergo, there is a debate as to how many gears it will take to make this change.
But this simply isn't the case with the 8sp (or even the 9sp for that matter!). I totally get what you're trying to say, but remember that one of the key attributes of a gearbox is shift quality and driving experience. I'm 99% sure the engineers at ZF are keen to maintain the attribute of a sporty and engaging drive whilst achieving the emissions results required by Euro V and VI emissions regulations. If anything, we should be happy they spend the time developing an 8 speed 'box rather than just compromising 6 ratios to achieve better MPG whilst ruining the fun. Effectively what we've ended up with is a close ratio 6 speed with 2 overdrives for emissions.We can debate what the ratios and maths behind it all is until the cows come home...however that doesn't change the fact that from a subjective point of view, the 8 speed IS more fun to drive than the 6 speed, can 'lug' a higher gear and DOES just feel like a 6 speed with shift speeds about 200% quicker and an extra two overdrive ratios at the top end.
E65Ross said:
You realise Aston only said that about 6 gears was because of the fact they didn't want buyers to know they were going to use the 8 speed box soon, don't you? They also said performance gains and economy gains were negligible... Which clearly was a load of crap.
Seconded.E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
No. Not saying any of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you understand what I am saying about noise then that is it!!!!!! That's all it is. It's that simple.
As more gears are added so the noise band will reduce as the range of revs over which the engine will be operating will reduce, given a similar similar speed range. This can be seen by the narrowing of the ratios in the shift over time of modern boxes as per the chart I put up. It is very basic mathematics.
Aston said, last year, that the reason they were sticking with 6 speeds was as they said it made for a better driving experience than 8. That is all.
In addition, it is also obvious that as more gears are added so you trend to constant velocity. So there is a clear debate or discussion as to at what point does an increase in gears start to not benefit the driving experience? I've not made any judgement. I don't know why you think I have. Aston have said 6.
If it's just about the noise then why did you mention all the clap trap about engine timing and torque curves etc? If you understand what I am saying about noise then that is it!!!!!! That's all it is. It's that simple.
As more gears are added so the noise band will reduce as the range of revs over which the engine will be operating will reduce, given a similar similar speed range. This can be seen by the narrowing of the ratios in the shift over time of modern boxes as per the chart I put up. It is very basic mathematics.
Aston said, last year, that the reason they were sticking with 6 speeds was as they said it made for a better driving experience than 8. That is all.
In addition, it is also obvious that as more gears are added so you trend to constant velocity. So there is a clear debate or discussion as to at what point does an increase in gears start to not benefit the driving experience? I've not made any judgement. I don't know why you think I have. Aston have said 6.
You realise Aston only said that about 6 gears was because of the fact they didn't want buyers to know they were going to use the 8 speed box soon, don't you? They also said performance gains and economy gains were negligible... Which clearly was a load of crap.
Again, you seem to have wilfully misread what I said about Aston also.
As you know more about fitting auto trans to engines I shall now out now.
You're mis-reading what im saying. It's funny that I'm not the only one who thinks you're talking some rather odd stuff.
Yes, manufacturers change the engine software etc but how you worded it almost made it sound as if you think modern engines aren't as good at lugging a tall gear like the older cars were..... Which is utter s
t.
Yes, manufacturers change the engine software etc but how you worded it almost made it sound as if you think modern engines aren't as good at lugging a tall gear like the older cars were..... Which is utter s
t. RacerMike said:
DonkeyApple said:
All I am saying is that as we add more gears the 'experience' of driving will catagorically change. If you take it to the ultimate end of constant rpm then the car will sound like a genny, which is obviously terrible. As such, we know that as we follow this trend we will reach the point that we lose the wonderful noise of something like a Ferrari V12 climbing through a rev range and all the notes, tones, frequency that we love. Ergo, there is a debate as to how many gears it will take to make this change.
But this simply isn't the case with the 8sp (or even the 9sp for that matter!). I totally get what you're trying to say, but remember that one of the key attributes of a gearbox is shift quality and driving experience. I'm 99% sure the engineers at ZF are keen to maintain the attribute of a sporty and engaging drive whilst achieving the emissions results required by Euro V and VI emissions regulations. If anything, we should be happy they spend the time developing an 8 speed 'box rather than just compromising 6 ratios to achieve better MPG whilst ruining the fun. Effectively what we've ended up with is a close ratio 6 speed with 2 overdrives for emissions.We can debate what the ratios and maths behind it all is until the cows come home...however that doesn't change the fact that from a subjective point of view, the 8 speed IS more fun to drive than the 6 speed, can 'lug' a higher gear and DOES just feel like a 6 speed with shift speeds about 200% quicker and an extra two overdrive ratios at the top end.
I agree that ZF have enabled it to be either very sporting or an uber waft in something like the Rolls. But you have hit the nail on the head with regards to emissions. It is legislation that is potentially going to push for more and tighter ratios and as we have all lived through the substantial change of going from 3 to 8 and seeing the enormous difference and improvement in performance we may also live through the decline of the traditional petrol in 'performance' terms as emission control forces ever closer ratios.
Re the final bit, it's the 6 speed close ratios element that you mention that is for economy, not the overdrives. It's the huge impact on urban driving not cruising in top where the gains have been made in the cycle and that strongly highlights my question as to where the momentum will end in terms of ever closer ratios.
E65Ross said:
Overdrive gears make a bi difference to economy too, you realise. Classic example is between the 5 speed vs 6 speed bmw E46 330i, where 1st-5th are almost identical. 6r is a cruising gear which really improved motorway economy.
Indeed. But just look at UK Govt driving stats, which are identical to all EU figs and cruising speeds aren't relevant to usage. PHers seem to spend a lot of time on motorways but as the stats show common usuage is in lower gears. Meeting EU figs is very much about CO2 etc in lower gears. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff