Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Author
Discussion

ilduce

485 posts

82 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
I'm not sure that you are distinguishing between something that looks good or bad and something that looks of the present time or of an earlier time (sometimes thought of as "style").

The things that make something look good are not time-dependent. Attractive proportions have always been attractive:


The "ugly phase" thesis does not hold up. In its most important respects, beauty is constant.

Whether a particular thing is intrinsically attractive is another matter. The F1 may not the best looking design amongst sports cars of the last 30 years (since aero and big tyres became important), but it is right up there. Other top contenders would be, for example, F40, Murcielago and Carrera GT. On the other hand, we have cars that, ever since they were first shown, were unattractive and will always be unattractive. Time has not made them better looking, and never can do.

The "dating" question is separate. There are cars that did not look good when they were made, but they seemed to be of their time, and they fit into the visual landscape for that reason. These are the cars that will be progressively less appealing. That is not because they once were nice but have now entered an "ugly phase", but because when introduced they embodied stylistic elements that were common enough that people were inured to them.
It appears I used the word "every car" by mistake when I should have said "many". Although not having lived the whole life of some of the cars you posted, I couldn't say if they ever looked "wrong" at some point in their life. It's possible. On the other hand the E-Type has always looked right.

Also I used the phrase "ugly" when I maybe should have said "dated"
So. You car is beginning to look dated. In a while it will look ok again don't worry.
Oh and I'm no fan of the superFiat, it was just one example: The big bumper/whale tail 911 is starting to look good again.

stevesingo

4,032 posts

177 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
Sir,

The brakes remain a work-in-progress, largely for reasons not completely related to carbon-carbon brakes. The ones on my car do work at low temp; that issue has been solved. The niggling issue is brake balance, which IMO is the result of weight transfer under dive (although the F1 has less weight transfer than most all road cars, it has a lot more weight transfer than the high-downforce racing cars on which carbon-carbon discs have heretofore exclusively been used).
The result of the weight transfer is that, unlike w iron discs, as more weight goes onto front axle, the carbon-carbon discs get increasingly effective, which means even more weight transfer. The fronts get to the point where they appear to be doing 90+% of the braking. With the rears doing almost no work, it puts too big a heat demand on the fronts. But if you move a sufficient bias to the rears for a heavy stop, you'll have too much bias on the rears for normal stops, especially when it is wet. We are working on methods of balancing the heat transition of fronts and rears.
Might I suggest a smaller diameter rear disc and larger rear pad area. The smaller disc, which would have less thermal capacity and therfore heat up quicker. The smaller disc will give smaller effective radius which will shift the (cold) brake balance forward. In order to counrer this forward shift in cold balance, a larger area pad would help restore cold balance and also put further heat in to the disc.

I'm sure you have some brilliant minds at work on this, but it is just a thought.

Soov535

35,829 posts

226 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
buckle88 said:
With regard to the price increasing, Flemke I'm sure early on you said that insurance was aprox 5% of the cars value at the time, is that still the case?

If so surely the yearly premium is fast approaching a point where it will come close to the fix cost of a serious accident like say Rowans.

Thanks
I'm not sure that I would have said "5%", as it has never been that high.
The most recent time that the underwriters and I reset the agreed value, the rate amounted to less than 2%.

When you figure that it cost (according to a magazine article) £910,000 to repair Rowan Atkinson's car, and that was a pretty major job (although not as major, I daresay, as the job of repairing the white one that rolled in Italy), then the cost of retrieving what in almost any other would have been unquestionably a write-off is no more than 20% of the market value. This obviously is going to reduce the required premium as a % of market value, relative to other cars.

The same applies, pretty much, to third-party liability.

Obviously, maximum loss in case of theft feeds proportionately into premium. F1s tend to be quite secure, for a number of reasons, so here too the effect on premium may be slightly less than with another marque.
Flemke, one should never confuse price and value, but with the Marlboro White car at Pebble Beach expected to fetch well into eight (!) figures, at what point will you blink? Or will you?

One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.

250GTO or an investment in commercial property which will yield a vast income in perpetuity?

Hmmmmm.

Nice problem to have, but don't you sometimes think, when firing the old girl up, "this thing is worth eight figures. I could do a lot with eight figures." Or do you simply love it too much??



hehe



Edited by Soov535 on Thursday 14th August 11:04

ManFromDelmonte

2,742 posts

135 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
flemke said:
The niggling issue is brake balance, which IMO is the result of weight transfer under dive (although the F1 has less weight transfer than most all road cars, it has a lot more weight transfer than the high-downforce racing cars on which carbon-carbon discs have heretofore exclusively been used).
The result of the weight transfer is that, unlike w iron discs, as more weight goes onto front axle, the carbon-carbon discs get increasingly effective, which means even more weight transfer. The fronts get to the point where they appear to be doing 90+% of the braking. With the rears doing almost no work, it puts too big a heat demand on the fronts. But if you move a sufficient bias to the rears for a heavy stop, you'll have too much bias on the rears for normal stops, especially when it is wet. We are working on methods of balancing the heat transition of fronts and rears.
I am certainly no expert on braking systems but it would seem to me fairly straight forward to have some kind of system that reacts to dive (via some lever attached to the suspension or otherwise) that could dynamically alter the brake balance as the dive angle changes. Calibrating it could be tricky though.

I assume such systems exist?

flemke

22,488 posts

192 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
ilduce said:
flemke said:
I'm not sure that you are distinguishing between something that looks good or bad and something that looks of the present time or of an earlier time (sometimes thought of as "style").

The things that make something look good are not time-dependent. Attractive proportions have always been attractive:


The "ugly phase" thesis does not hold up. In its most important respects, beauty is constant.

Whether a particular thing is intrinsically attractive is another matter. The F1 may not the best looking design amongst sports cars of the last 30 years (since aero and big tyres became important), but it is right up there. Other top contenders would be, for example, F40, Murcielago and Carrera GT. On the other hand, we have cars that, ever since they were first shown, were unattractive and will always be unattractive. Time has not made them better looking, and never can do.

The "dating" question is separate. There are cars that did not look good when they were made, but they seemed to be of their time, and they fit into the visual landscape for that reason. These are the cars that will be progressively less appealing. That is not because they once were nice but have now entered an "ugly phase", but because when introduced they embodied stylistic elements that were common enough that people were inured to them.
It appears I used the word "every car" by mistake when I should have said "many". Although not having lived the whole life of some of the cars you posted, I couldn't say if they ever looked "wrong" at some point in their life. It's possible. On the other hand the E-Type has always looked right.

Also I used the phrase "ugly" when I maybe should have said "dated"
So. You car is beginning to look dated. In a while it will look ok again don't worry.
I'm not worried, but thank you for your concern.







thegreenhell

7,030 posts

174 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
ManFromDelmonte said:
I am certainly no expert on braking systems but it would seem to me fairly straight forward to have some kind of system that reacts to dive (via some lever attached to the suspension or otherwise) that could dynamically alter the brake balance as the dive angle changes. Calibrating it could be tricky though.

I assume such systems exist?
I'm sure most mainstream modern cars have such a system already. My Fiat Uno certainly had back in the 1980s.

thegreenhell

7,030 posts

174 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.

250GTO or an investment in commercial property which will yield a vast income in perpetuity?

Hmmmmm.
I'd be surprised if he did think like that. He already has vast income in perpetuity from his Pink Floyd days, and if you already have more than enough money to live your life however you wish what difference does a few more millions make? If he bought it because he loves it, and still continues to love it, then no amount of money in the world will make him sell if he doesn't need to.

Mjunkie

12 posts

71 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Wow. Thank you for spending the time to reply Flemke. It's great to know you are improving on the F1 using technology they would have implemented had it been feasible at the time.

One day I hope you take it to the top gear test track just to see how this awesome car performs against the newer opposition.

Ps you are a legend.


Mjunkie

12 posts

71 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Just out of interest, does anyone know if the LMs have the sound system and a/c as they are pretty much gtr spec minus the race electronics and carbon brakes?

Muzzer79

3,414 posts

142 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.

250GTO or an investment in commercial property which will yield a vast income in perpetuity?

Hmmmmm.
I'd be surprised if he did think like that. He already has vast income in perpetuity from his Pink Floyd days, and if you already have more than enough money to live your life however you wish what difference does a few more millions make? If he bought it because he loves it, and still continues to love it, then no amount of money in the world will make him sell if he doesn't need to.
I agree

Say, for arguments sake, Mason is worth £150m (I have no idea of his actual worth) and the GTO does indeed go for £50m

What can you do with £200m that you can't do with £150m?

If you were in trouble financially or had a relatively small amount of worth then it would be differen but I would say there's few people now who own these cars who aren't multi-millionaires at least


flemke

22,488 posts

192 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
flemke said:
Sir,

The brakes remain a work-in-progress, largely for reasons not completely related to carbon-carbon brakes. The ones on my car do work at low temp; that issue has been solved. The niggling issue is brake balance, which IMO is the result of weight transfer under dive (although the F1 has less weight transfer than most all road cars, it has a lot more weight transfer than the high-downforce racing cars on which carbon-carbon discs have heretofore exclusively been used).
The result of the weight transfer is that, unlike w iron discs, as more weight goes onto front axle, the carbon-carbon discs get increasingly effective, which means even more weight transfer. The fronts get to the point where they appear to be doing 90+% of the braking. With the rears doing almost no work, it puts too big a heat demand on the fronts. But if you move a sufficient bias to the rears for a heavy stop, you'll have too much bias on the rears for normal stops, especially when it is wet. We are working on methods of balancing the heat transition of fronts and rears.
Might I suggest a smaller diameter rear disc and larger rear pad area. The smaller disc, which would have less thermal capacity and therfore heat up quicker. The smaller disc will give smaller effective radius which will shift the (cold) brake balance forward. In order to counrer this forward shift in cold balance, a larger area pad would help restore cold balance and also put further heat in to the disc.

I'm sure you have some brilliant minds at work on this, but it is just a thought.
The guys advising me also advise at least 3 current F1 teams on their brakes, so I trust that I am in good hands.

I "need" a disc size that is available in both iron and carbon-carbon. In turn, that dictates the dimensions of the uprights. I need calipers that are designed to work with both iron and carbon-carbon. To use a different size disc at the rear would require different uprights and different calipers. Even if the right calipers were available, I am not all that keen to have to have new uprights made up, buy new calipers, etc.
Then we have the fact that you can't buy carbon-carbon discs in any old size. Indeed, it took some work to persuade Carbon Industrie to supply me with any discs at all for a road car. You can have a larger disc machined down to size, but that is more hassle.

I think we'll get this sorted. Worst case, we can augment the front brake cooling, but the guys advising me don't expect that to be necessary.





flemke

22,488 posts

192 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
ManFromDelmonte said:
flemke said:
The niggling issue is brake balance, which IMO is the result of weight transfer under dive (although the F1 has less weight transfer than most all road cars, it has a lot more weight transfer than the high-downforce racing cars on which carbon-carbon discs have heretofore exclusively been used).
The result of the weight transfer is that, unlike w iron discs, as more weight goes onto front axle, the carbon-carbon discs get increasingly effective, which means even more weight transfer. The fronts get to the point where they appear to be doing 90+% of the braking. With the rears doing almost no work, it puts too big a heat demand on the fronts. But if you move a sufficient bias to the rears for a heavy stop, you'll have too much bias on the rears for normal stops, especially when it is wet. We are working on methods of balancing the heat transition of fronts and rears.
I am certainly no expert on braking systems but it would seem to me fairly straight forward to have some kind of system that reacts to dive (via some lever attached to the suspension or otherwise) that could dynamically alter the brake balance as the dive angle changes. Calibrating it could be tricky though.

I assume such systems exist?
That actually sounds quite difficult to me, as normal suspension deflection would tend to dominate the information going to the sensors.

If one were going to head in that direction, I think the datum to capture would be braking g, which would be independent of road feedback.



flemke

22,488 posts

192 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
flemke said:
buckle88 said:
With regard to the price increasing, Flemke I'm sure early on you said that insurance was aprox 5% of the cars value at the time, is that still the case?

If so surely the yearly premium is fast approaching a point where it will come close to the fix cost of a serious accident like say Rowans.

Thanks
I'm not sure that I would have said "5%", as it has never been that high.
The most recent time that the underwriters and I reset the agreed value, the rate amounted to less than 2%.

When you figure that it cost (according to a magazine article) £910,000 to repair Rowan Atkinson's car, and that was a pretty major job (although not as major, I daresay, as the job of repairing the white one that rolled in Italy), then the cost of retrieving what in almost any other would have been unquestionably a write-off is no more than 20% of the market value. This obviously is going to reduce the required premium as a % of market value, relative to other cars.

The same applies, pretty much, to third-party liability.

Obviously, maximum loss in case of theft feeds proportionately into premium. F1s tend to be quite secure, for a number of reasons, so here too the effect on premium may be slightly less than with another marque.
Flemke, one should never confuse price and value, but with the Marlboro White car at Pebble Beach expected to fetch well into eight (!) figures, at what point will you blink? Or will you?

One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.

250GTO or an investment in commercial property which will yield a vast income in perpetuity?

Hmmmmm.

Nice problem to have, but don't you sometimes think, when firing the old girl up, "this thing is worth eight figures. I could do a lot with eight figures." Or do you simply love it too much??



hehe
Never say, "Never", but I don't see its happening. Fortunately (or maybe not), there is nothing I would do with the money.
For me to sell, I think I would need to believe that market values were going to fall substantially.
Alternatively, if the driving environment were about to evolve into the stuff of Eddy Miliband's dreams, in which we were all treated as sheep being carted around in autonomous electric golf carts, that would probably make me sell it, and every other car I own.

flemke

22,488 posts

192 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
Mjunkie said:
Just out of interest, does anyone know if the LMs have the sound system and a/c as they are pretty much gtr spec minus the race electronics and carbon brakes?
They have neither, as the car's weight was stripped to the bone.

The biggest shortcoming with the LMs, however, is that they have straight-cut gears, which make an incredible amount of noise. This noise is so dominant that the LMs came with sets of colour-matched ear-defenders as standard.

longshot

3,286 posts

153 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
5 volumes?

Flemke, is it your Mclaren or not?

fatboy69

8,223 posts

142 months

Thursday 14th August 2014
quotequote all
So. You car is beginning to look dated. In a while it will look ok again don't worry.
[/quote]

I'm not worried, but thank you for your concern.





The above two lines, out of literally thousands on the threads, made me chuckle quite a lot.

One because it is just such a daft thing to say & the other because it is a perfect put-down.








ilduce

485 posts

82 months

Friday 15th August 2014
quotequote all
fatboy69 said:
So. You car is beginning to look dated. In a while it will look ok again don't worry.
I'm not worried, but thank you for your concern.





The above two lines, out of literally thousands on the threads, made me chuckle quite a lot.

One because it is just such a daft thing to say & the other because it is a perfect put-down.




You can't see that it's beginning to look dated because you are blinded by your love of Flemke.
You really should change your name to fanboy69.

E65Ross

24,818 posts

167 months

Friday 15th August 2014
quotequote all
You have said two very different things though.

It's beginning to look dated. But don't worry, it will ok again in a while.

By saying that you're saying that because it looks dated it doesn't look good. Yes, it looks dated, but it still looks OK. You don't have to be a fanboy to see you've made 2 differing comments in the same sentence.

A 250gto looks very dated, still looks OK though.

heebeegeetee

26,949 posts

203 months

Friday 15th August 2014
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
250GTO or an investment in commercial property which will yield a vast income in perpetuity?
I imagine he's already got the latter, but there's only one car registered 250 GTO.

will_

5,831 posts

158 months

Friday 15th August 2014
quotequote all
Soov535 said:
One imagines that even Nick Mason must be considering his options with 250GTO which he has owned for decades. Surely there comes a point at which even if one has vast other resources and assets, it becomes difficult to resist such a windfall, especially if one factors in the possibility of a correction in the market.
Given the relatively poor performance of the 250 GTO last night you could rightly be wondering if the correction has just happened.

The F1 may show a similar picture at Gooding & Co over the weekend.