Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
PAUL500 said:
That's the sound, alright.He's using the standard silencer, which is fairly restrictive in addition to being pretty heavy (despite being made from inconel). The smaller silencers, standard on the LM and available from the factory as a retrofit to all F1s, have the same timbre and are nearly as loud whilst being road-legal.
dobly said:
I like his attitude - "it's just a car".
Yes, this is one of the nice things about the F1 in contrast to pretty much everything that has been made since: it has relatively straightforward technology that is accessible to the "normal", really good technician. There was a video on Sky Sports with Keke and Nico Rosberg about their driving Keke's and Nico's racing cars around Monaco recently. Nico commented that, in order to start his 2016 Formula One car, the technicians had to commence the tedious, step-by-step starting routine five hours ahead of when they first could turn over the engine.
flemke said:
PAUL500 said:
That's the sound, alright.He's using the standard silencer, which is fairly restrictive in addition to being pretty heavy (despite being made from inconel). The smaller silencers, standard on the LM and available from the factory as a retrofit to all F1s, have the same timbre and are nearly as loud whilst being road-legal.
How do the smaller silencers effect that?
flemke said:
There was a video on Sky Sports with Keke and Nico Rosberg about their driving Keke's and Nico's racing cars around Monaco recently. Nico commented that, in order to start his 2016 Formula One car, the technicians had to commence the tedious, step-by-step starting routine five hours ahead of when they first could turn over the engine.
Yup, sounds about right. Engines are built to such insane tolerances that they need to be run on external heaters to bring everything up to temperature before the engine can be turned over.
Then it'll be spun over a few times for oil pressure and systems checks, then a long spin and fire..
It's been that way for a while though, here's a start and check over on F93A (filmed by me a couple of years ago, sorry to bring a Ferrari to the thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1C0ao6vyk
The decommission side of things is time consuming as well, hydraulics need to be cooled as the fluids run above their flash point. Air bottles need to be discharged, fuel drained, etc etc etc...
It's a busy time!
thegreenhell said:
Damn, there goes my plan to buy an F1 car, put it through an IVA test, and use it to drive to the shops.
The Sauber recently driven by Billy monger would do the job though.. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Sway said:
flemke said:
PAUL500 said:
That's the sound, alright.He's using the standard silencer, which is fairly restrictive in addition to being pretty heavy (despite being made from inconel). The smaller silencers, standard on the LM and available from the factory as a retrofit to all F1s, have the same timbre and are nearly as loud whilst being road-legal.
How do the smaller silencers effect that?
The smaller ones are not designed to be a crash structure, although as mostly empty metal containers they would have some ability to absorb energy.
weeboot said:
flemke said:
There was a video on Sky Sports with Keke and Nico Rosberg about their driving Keke's and Nico's racing cars around Monaco recently. Nico commented that, in order to start his 2016 Formula One car, the technicians had to commence the tedious, step-by-step starting routine five hours ahead of when they first could turn over the engine.
Yup, sounds about right. Engines are built to such insane tolerances that they need to be run on external heaters to bring everything up to temperature before the engine can be turned over.
Then it'll be spun over a few times for oil pressure and systems checks, then a long spin and fire..
It's been that way for a while though, here's a start and check over on F93A (filmed by me a couple of years ago, sorry to bring a Ferrari to the thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1C0ao6vyk
The decommission side of things is time consuming as well, hydraulics need to be cooled as the fluids run above their flash point. Air bottles need to be discharged, fuel drained, etc etc etc...
It's a busy time!
What would happen if they did not decommission the car but rather left it with the fluids in place for a period of time?
flemke said:
For how long a time can a car be shut off before it has to be decommissioned?
What would happen if they did not decommission the car but rather left it with the fluids in place for a period of time?
I'm honestly not sure. What would happen if they did not decommission the car but rather left it with the fluids in place for a period of time?
I do know that things like the air bottles (for air valves et al) are lifed whilst under pressure, therefore it's preferable to depressurise them. Other items are degraded by the fluids which they are running.
The cars I've been, very loosely, involved with were part of a private, jumbo, collection of F1 hardware, so the cars were returned to the "museum" when they had finished running.
GarageQueen said:
flemke said:
Until about three years ago, when McLaren and BMW severed their relationship re the F1, there were authorised service centres in California, New Jersey, and near Frankfurt. Those have now ceased operating as service centres.
McLaren now have one authorised service centre, at McLaren Cars of Philadelphia. Beyond that, most F1 owners either send their cars to Woking, or a McLaren technician will travel to them. A couple of days ago the top F1 technician returned to the UK after a two or three week stay in the US, visiting and servicing a number of customers' cars around the country.
that’s interesting....but I do wonder how cars get serviced at your home, surely the visiting technician needs access to a lift and tools to do things like oil changes and clutch replacement? McLaren now have one authorised service centre, at McLaren Cars of Philadelphia. Beyond that, most F1 owners either send their cars to Woking, or a McLaren technician will travel to them. A couple of days ago the top F1 technician returned to the UK after a two or three week stay in the US, visiting and servicing a number of customers' cars around the country.
Because there is now a fairly extensive McLaren dealer network, in most cases the F1 will be taken to the nearest dealer, where the F1 technician from Woking will use their local facilities (lift, giant torque wrench, air compresser - the stuff that's hard to included with one's checked luggage).
Some owners (such as Leno, as shown in his videos) have their own facilities and the car will be serviced there.
cc8s said:
Flemke, I recall you talking about the brake callipers on your P1. Were they painted, or of a more unusual arrangement?
What I wanted was for Akebono to make a set with that same nickel finish that they use on McLaren's Formula One cars.It took Akebono many months to respond to McLaren's request for a quote for the calipers, and when they did the quote was so high that McLaren told me they were embarrassed to pass it on to me.
It was pretty clear that Akebono's mentality was, "We really don't want to have to bother with this, and therefore we'll be so awkward that you'll drop the idea".
McLaren themselves were perfectly constructive about the concept. They agreed with me that nickel calipers would look great, but unfortunately Akebono were not interested.
I ended up ordering the calipers in silver, which looked fine (better than any other colour, IMO), but of course they were not special.
Oddly enough, for the P15 ("Senna"), McLaren cannot do the calipers in silver paint. They tell me that, because the temperature peak for its brakes is higher than on the P1 and other cars, it would cause silver paint to disfigure or deteriorate.
1,140 Kg is the official figure supplied by McLaren - not sure who published anything other than that, but it would be incorrect for curb weight and I don't recall McLaren supplying a dry weight figure.
There is really no such thing as a US-spec F1. Yes, the car Road&Track tested was an "Ameritech F1" which had to be converted to clear the US importation hurdles, but none of those changes were permanent and all were swiftly reversed once the cars had been delivered to their customers. The magazine didn't test it in its converted form, so those extra bits should not have been a factor. It was never really clear why Road&Track reported the figure that they did, but different publications have different standards for calculating weight with some including all fluids and some even including a driver.
I look forward to flemke's response as I suspect he will have some interesting data and comments on this topic.
>8^)
ER
There is really no such thing as a US-spec F1. Yes, the car Road&Track tested was an "Ameritech F1" which had to be converted to clear the US importation hurdles, but none of those changes were permanent and all were swiftly reversed once the cars had been delivered to their customers. The magazine didn't test it in its converted form, so those extra bits should not have been a factor. It was never really clear why Road&Track reported the figure that they did, but different publications have different standards for calculating weight with some including all fluids and some even including a driver.
I look forward to flemke's response as I suspect he will have some interesting data and comments on this topic.
>8^)
ER
portland12345 said:
What is the weight of the F1?
Quoted figures go from 1100kg (2,420 lbs) dry weight to 1140 kg (2508 lbs) kerb weight.
Road and track test has test weight of 1335 kg (2945 lbs). That seems heavy or is it because it was US spec model?
No two cars are exactly the same, but a car with:Quoted figures go from 1100kg (2,420 lbs) dry weight to 1140 kg (2508 lbs) kerb weight.
Road and track test has test weight of 1335 kg (2945 lbs). That seems heavy or is it because it was US spec model?
- all fluids incl full (or nearly) tank of fuel,
- CD player,
- upgraded radiators and A/C,
- leather interior,
- extra bits such as tool and first-aid kits, warning triangle, wheel nut spanner,
- "free-flowing" (lighter weight and noisier) silencers, and
- no driver
will weigh between 1250 and 1280 kg.
flemke said:
No two cars are exactly the same, but a car with:
- all fluids incl full (or nearly) tank of fuel,
- CD player,
- upgraded radiators and A/C,
- leather interior,
- extra bits such as tool and first-aid kits, warning triangle, wheel nut spanner,
- "free-flowing" (lighter weight and noisier) silencers, and
- no driver
will weigh between 1250 and 1280 kg.
Okay thank you. - all fluids incl full (or nearly) tank of fuel,
- CD player,
- upgraded radiators and A/C,
- leather interior,
- extra bits such as tool and first-aid kits, warning triangle, wheel nut spanner,
- "free-flowing" (lighter weight and noisier) silencers, and
- no driver
will weigh between 1250 and 1280 kg.
Would be really cool to see one on weight scales to see cross weights. Probably not that interesting being center seat position probably 50/50 cross weight.
Little bit different question if you don't mind.
Mclaren F1 uses fairly soft springs (front/rear) with no roll bar at rear. (from what I read frequency 1.4 Hz front 1.75 Hz rear)
Do you notice lot of squat and dive during acceleration and braking? How stable is during hard acceleration or braking?
Watching the famous best motoring review video,
amount of roll in cornering and just general acceleration squat and dive during braking looks very high for supercar.
It seems like the F1 wasn't really built to be fast around tracks but rather straight line.
Edited by portland12345 on Monday 16th July 21:38
portland12345 said:
flemke said:
No two cars are exactly the same, but a car with:
- all fluids incl full (or nearly) tank of fuel,
- CD player,
- upgraded radiators and A/C,
- leather interior,
- extra bits such as tool and first-aid kits, warning triangle, wheel nut spanner,
- "free-flowing" (lighter weight and noisier) silencers, and
- no driver
will weigh between 1250 and 1280 kg.
Okay thank you. - all fluids incl full (or nearly) tank of fuel,
- CD player,
- upgraded radiators and A/C,
- leather interior,
- extra bits such as tool and first-aid kits, warning triangle, wheel nut spanner,
- "free-flowing" (lighter weight and noisier) silencers, and
- no driver
will weigh between 1250 and 1280 kg.
Would be really cool to see one on weight scales to see cross weights. Probably not that interesting being center seat position probably 50/50 cross weight.
Little bit different question if you don't mind.
Mclaren F1 uses fairly soft springs (front/rear) with no roll bar at rear. (from what I read frequency 1.4 Hz front 1.75 Hz rear)
Do you notice lot of squat and dive during acceleration and braking? How stable is during hard acceleration or braking?
Watching the famous best motoring review video,
amount of roll in cornering and just general acceleration squat and dive during braking looks very high for supercar.
It seems like the F1 wasn't really built to be fast around tracks but rather straight line.
My car has been substantially modified from standard, as described on various of these pages over the years. Stability under acceleration is fine, under braking less so, and is one of the things that I have addressed. In the standard car, lift-off oversteer can be tricky. Perhaps not a problem if you were one of McLaren's test drivers (such as Jonathan Palmer and Mika Hakkinen), but not all owners were at their level of driving ability.
flemke said:
Gordon made no bones about it - he designed a "GT" car, not a racing car.
My car has been substantially modified from standard, as described on various of these pages over the years. Stability under acceleration is fine, under braking less so, and is one of the things that I have addressed. In the standard car, lift-off oversteer can be tricky. Perhaps not a problem if you were one of McLaren's test drivers (such as Jonathan Palmer and Mika Hakkinen), but not all owners were at their level of driving ability.
Such great insight. My car has been substantially modified from standard, as described on various of these pages over the years. Stability under acceleration is fine, under braking less so, and is one of the things that I have addressed. In the standard car, lift-off oversteer can be tricky. Perhaps not a problem if you were one of McLaren's test drivers (such as Jonathan Palmer and Mika Hakkinen), but not all owners were at their level of driving ability.
Gonna have to find you previous posts.
If you don't mind answering few more questions.
Is there any journalist review that describes the driving aspect truthfully.
The reviews I have read so far just seem like fluff and its like coming off template for every car, doesn't seem to convey what I think the F1 is like to drive.
Your description of braking is very interesting.
It seems F1 tends to understeer quite a bit when pushed. From reading Gordon's notes from Driving Ambition he was aiming for 245/18 at front.
In the book he says they were aiming for 50/50 aero balance cl of 0.15 and 0.15 rear but I find that very suspect as watching the videos the front end seems to get light on high speed.
I have been trying to find the paper Steve Randle wrote on the design of the McLaren F1 suspension but no luck so far.
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