What is the most overrated car manufacturer?
Discussion
Pan Pan said:
I have had a number of VW `sover the years and `most' have done over 100k without even a bulb failure, either I have been lucky, or you have been unlucky in your contact with VAG products.
If you think a bit of welding rod tacked to the boot floor as a tie down, is acceptable quality on a car costing virtually the same as an equivalent VAG product, then I would hate to think what else you deem is acceptable in terms of quality.
As for a |Ferrari one would expect the heat shield to be attached in more professional way than spiking it onto nails welded to the engine bay bulkhead. Not acceptable on a car costing ten thousand pounds, absolutely awful on a car for which over one hundred thousand pound is being charged.
So the car is built badly because of some heat shield fixings? Really? Have you ever seen the way that Porsche fix their under shields to their cars? I'm sure you'd be positively shocked....If you think a bit of welding rod tacked to the boot floor as a tie down, is acceptable quality on a car costing virtually the same as an equivalent VAG product, then I would hate to think what else you deem is acceptable in terms of quality.
As for a |Ferrari one would expect the heat shield to be attached in more professional way than spiking it onto nails welded to the engine bay bulkhead. Not acceptable on a car costing ten thousand pounds, absolutely awful on a car for which over one hundred thousand pound is being charged.
V8forweekends said:
nadger said:
FeelingLucky said:
Beer Man said:
THE most overrated?
BMW.
to be fair, their marketing department must be staffed entirely by genius types as their cars are f****** awful
As soon as I read the header I thought some knobbler is bound to say BMW, the manufacturer that makes the //M series.BMW.
to be fair, their marketing department must be staffed entirely by genius types as their cars are f****** awful
Cars that (almost always) hugely out perform their underpinnings. Have a read through the other suggestions and ask yourself, did you call it right with BMW?
holes, but I happen to share his opinion (but not his ahole as far as I'm aware!)RobM77 said:
The thing is that even if you don't like FE/RWD cars like MX5s, TVRs, Ferrari GTs, Astons, Caterhams, AC Cobras etc, you have to admit there are people out there who do, so on that basis, what are those people supposed to buy for a family car that also has that popular FE/RWD handling? Most people I know who have owned a string of BMWs (me included), don't do it out of love for the marque, moreso out of love for the layout of FE/RWD coupled with a manual gearbox and a reasonably low CofG. I'm not sure there's even a case for them being under-rated or over-rated, because so few other manufacturers do what they do.
That's it. - It wouldn't matter to me if the cars were made by Ford or Vauxhall. For enthusiasts, it's the driving experience and characteristics of the cars that makes or breaks the brand & personally I find the average BMW less desirable than I used to because they're catering less and less for the petrolhead these days.Perhaps a bit controversial, but Ferrari.
They are currently at a real high point, with an excellent line-up of cars, no question about that. BUT, rising values of certain exceptional cars (eg. 355, Dino, etc) has made everything they've made more expensive and they have had some hideous heaps in their back catalogue - they are not a faultless manufacturer.
In the same vain I would probably put Aston too, if for no other reason than since the DB7 they seem to be doing a rehash of the same thing. Sure they are pretty cars, but the equivalent Jags are usually faster at half the price and that seems a little bit nuts. Perhaps the new AMG partnership will revive them and coax them into doing something radical. Fingers crossed.
I also would like to mention that I wish the BMW 114i/d etc... had existed some time ago - it would have meant I would have had a half chance of getting insured in a BMW as a first car. As it happened at the the time very few German makers put smaller (or smaller badged) engines in their cars. For people that live in the city, or have extortionate insurance costs for one reason or another, having a low-powered car with all the trimmings of a high powered one does have its benefits.
They are currently at a real high point, with an excellent line-up of cars, no question about that. BUT, rising values of certain exceptional cars (eg. 355, Dino, etc) has made everything they've made more expensive and they have had some hideous heaps in their back catalogue - they are not a faultless manufacturer.
In the same vain I would probably put Aston too, if for no other reason than since the DB7 they seem to be doing a rehash of the same thing. Sure they are pretty cars, but the equivalent Jags are usually faster at half the price and that seems a little bit nuts. Perhaps the new AMG partnership will revive them and coax them into doing something radical. Fingers crossed.
I also would like to mention that I wish the BMW 114i/d etc... had existed some time ago - it would have meant I would have had a half chance of getting insured in a BMW as a first car. As it happened at the the time very few German makers put smaller (or smaller badged) engines in their cars. For people that live in the city, or have extortionate insurance costs for one reason or another, having a low-powered car with all the trimmings of a high powered one does have its benefits.
Edited by jayemm89 on Saturday 10th January 12:52
but its gotta be audi, even though I like them Clivey said:
That's it. - It wouldn't matter to me if the cars were made by Ford or Vauxhall. For enthusiasts, it's the driving experience and characteristics of the cars that makes or breaks the brand & personally I find the average BMW less desirable than I used to because they're catering less and less for the petrolhead these days.
True to an extent, but the gap between a BMW and the equivalent from the other premium brands is still remarkable. My recent experience of trying to find a family car that didn't handle like a f+cking Audi was quite depressing, and the only Brightside was that BMW can still make a 1700kg estate car handle better than a 1500kg saloon from Merc, Audi, etc.
I think BMW is probably slightly underrated in this country because people are obsessed with badges and their social connotations, rather than looking at the dynamics, etc.
The 114d on boggo suspension is a pretty horrific car, but all major manufacturers now produce some terrible cars. A1? Really? Even the C-Class is, in my view, pretty unforgiveable at the price point. The difference is that BMW still also produce a lot of mainstream but decent cars.
Mound Dawg said:
Jordan Clarkson said:
Alfa Romeo
...but stuff like Mitos and Guillettias are not attractive at all in my opinion, I don't see the soul and passion people seem to think they have.
Um, those of us who are into old Alfas don't see the "soul and passion" in these either. Personally I think that the Mito is just like my Fiat Punto in a dress. And not a very nice dress either....but stuff like Mitos and Guillettias are not attractive at all in my opinion, I don't see the soul and passion people seem to think they have.
ORD said:
Even the C-Class is, in my view, pretty unforgiveable at the price point.
What in particular do you think is the problem? I've been looking at the 3-series and C-class which both seem pretty sound value so long as you don't get carried away wanting a huge engine and lots of shiny options. It's cars like Golf which look expensive to me.wemorgan said:
With respect the engineering R&D the best value cars are ones like Focus & Golf.
The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
I believe a motoring magazine, quite possibly EVO, pointed out that if you look at how many 911 GT3s Porsche sell, compared to how many One-77s Aston sold, it would be quite reasonable to assume (although complete speculation, but well-founded) that the cheaper car had a much larger development budget - as they could spread their costs over many more salesThe worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
..just a thought but how long exactly do you expect brake pads to last because 55000 miles for 2 sets of rears is good but for a set of fronts is pretty bloody amazing!
cslwannabe said:
Actually Jaguar - based on my sample size of 1 (having only ever owned 1) our XF got worse and worse as the miles racked up (owned it from new to 55k miles in just under 3 years) and it frequently broke down, consumed a dozen headlights in the time we owned it, spent weeks in the dealer with electrical issues (never resolved), got through 2 sets of rear brake pads and 1 set of fronts in the time we owned it, yet the British motoring press never say a bad word against Jaguar.
Mmm, can't you keep it current? All the cars made in the 80's by Jag aren't made any more are they?
And they were owned by someone other than Tata...
And the same with Aston, the James Bond thing was done by BMW and Ford and Lotus too remember? It's marketing.
James Bond helped them all sell cars but, strangely, didn't answer the OPs question ...
And they were owned by someone other than Tata...
And the same with Aston, the James Bond thing was done by BMW and Ford and Lotus too remember? It's marketing.
James Bond helped them all sell cars but, strangely, didn't answer the OPs question ...
Morningside said:
I agree with Jaguar. I was following one yesterday and it reminded me. A friend of mine had one in the late 80s and I have seen better electics on a Rover.
Would Aston be where it is without the James Bond wanna be followers?
Would Aston be where it is without the James Bond wanna be followers?
RobM77 said:
The thing is that even if you don't like FE/RWD cars like MX5s, TVRs, Ferrari GTs, Astons, Caterhams, AC Cobras etc, you have to admit there are people out there who do, so on that basis, what are those people supposed to buy for a family car that also has that popular FE/RWD handling? Most people I know who have owned a string of BMWs (me included), don't do it out of love for the marque, moreso out of love for the layout of FE/RWD coupled with a manual gearbox and a reasonably low CofG. I'm not sure there's even a case for them being under-rated or over-rated, because so few other manufacturers do what they do.
I would imagine that a vast proportion of UK drivers would not know if the car they drive is FWD or RWD. No; I would suspect, care.whysub said:
RobM77 said:
The thing is that even if you don't like FE/RWD cars like MX5s, TVRs, Ferrari GTs, Astons, Caterhams, AC Cobras etc, you have to admit there are people out there who do, so on that basis, what are those people supposed to buy for a family car that also has that popular FE/RWD handling? Most people I know who have owned a string of BMWs (me included), don't do it out of love for the marque, moreso out of love for the layout of FE/RWD coupled with a manual gearbox and a reasonably low CofG. I'm not sure there's even a case for them being under-rated or over-rated, because so few other manufacturers do what they do.
I would imagine that a vast proportion of UK drivers would not know if the car they drive is FWD or RWD. No; I would suspect, care.Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 10th January 18:43
wemorgan said:
With respect the engineering R&D the best value cars are ones like Focus & Golf.
The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
The most incorrect post on the thread! Why would they spend less money on the R&D of a supercar? They have to meet the same stringent crash tests, hot and cold climate tests etc as the normal road furniture type cars. If you had any idea what is involved in getting Emission certification on a naturally aspirated v8 that produces in access of 500 horsepower in all kind of climatic conditions with varying fuel quality, you would realise quite how wrong you are...The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
jayemm89 said:
wemorgan said:
With respect the engineering R&D the best value cars are ones like Focus & Golf.
The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
I believe a motoring magazine, quite possibly EVO, pointed out that if you look at how many 911 GT3s Porsche sell, compared to how many One-77s Aston sold, it would be quite reasonable to assume (although complete speculation, but well-founded) that the cheaper car had a much larger development budget - as they could spread their costs over many more salesThe worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
Cerberaherts said:
wemorgan said:
With respect the engineering R&D the best value cars are ones like Focus & Golf.
The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
The most incorrect post on the thread! Why would they spend less money on the R&D of a supercar? They have to meet the same stringent crash tests, hot and cold climate tests etc as the normal road furniture type cars. If you had any idea what is involved in getting Emission certification on a naturally aspirated v8 that produces in access of 500 horsepower in all kind of climatic conditions with varying fuel quality, you would realise quite how wrong you are...The worst value cars by the same token are all the super/hyper cars. They spend much less on R&D yet the cars cost x10 to x100.
But few buy cars on such sterile criteria.
Ps. Not all cars meet the same crash test. Legislative, consumer, European, North american, China etc etc, they are all different. Nice try.
Edited by wemorgan on Saturday 10th January 19:49
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