RE: Lotus Evora 400 :Driven

[Ozzie Osmond]

zebra said:

Don't rise to it Moribund, he's a frustrated porsche driver trolling.

One wonders why you guys are so super-sensitive about Lotus when it's been losing money hand-over-fist for years. Personally I'm a huge fan of the marque and want to see them back as a serious player in the sportscar market rather than fumbling about at the edges with special edition after special edition or, worse still, following a long list of other brands into bankruptcy. A small handful of die-hards will never achieve that for them.

[kambites]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Bolting the back of Evora onto the tub of an old Exige simply confirms the high cost issue.

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean? Obviously a new VVA based tub wont cost nothing to develop so why would they develop a new tub when they already have one which is fit for purpose? They could have used the Evora's tub as-is but that would have produced an inferior car.

The point of VVA was never to allow them to make new tubs for no reason; it was to allow them to do so reasonably cheaply when there is a reason. Now perhaps that attitude is wrong because mainstream companies clearly make a lot of their money from repeat custom to people who buy the new model simply because it's new, rather than because it's better; but that's an attitude Lotus have thus far never adopted.


ETA: Also perhaps worth pointing out that VVA was never meant to bring down production costs. Quite the opposite in fact, compared to a steel space-frame like the 911 it was meant to bring down initial development costs at the expense production costs. This is why it's only suitable for relatively low production numbers where R&D costs tend to swamp build costs.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 5th August 14:36

[zebra]

Ozzie Osmond said:

zebra said:

Don't rise to it Moribund, he's a frustrated porsche driver trolling.

One wonders why you guys are so super-sensitive about Lotus when it's been losing money hand-over-fist for years. Personally I'm a huge fan of the marque and want to see them back as a serious player in the sportscar market rather than fumbling about at the edges with special edition after special edition or, worse still, following a long list of other brands into bankruptcy. A small handful of die-hards will never achieve that for them.

I would suggest that we are not super-sensitive. I think the reaction was more to do with the suggestion in your statement implying Lotus had failed with what is actually considered by many to be an engineering benchmark.

Companies like this, Morgan, Caterham and TVR will always 'be on the verge' of bankruptcy but you know what, the motoring world is richer with them around and Lotus' engineering department is in demand across the world for their expertise.

....and as for being a 'huge fan', I don't think you are. Look at my car history - I'm a huge fan.

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.

[Tuna]

Ignoring Ozzie's wildly inaccurate history,I could never work out how far VVA got. When the Evora came out, and work started on the Esprit, I recall an interview saying it would allow them to get from blank sheet to production in 18 months. The Esprit project lasted far longer than that (even under Bahar), but it wasn't clear if VVA was part of the delay or that was more down to all the other politics. In theory at least, it should still be a useful 'tool' in the designer's bag, but I've no idea if that's true.

It's perhaps a sign of how Lotus has changed public perception in the last twelve months that we got 17 pages into this discussion before someone posted that they should build a new Esprit and/or MX-5 to save the company. At the moment, it doesn't look like they need saving.

[Ozzie Osmond]

zebra said:

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.

Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.

[blueg33]

Ozzie Osmond said:

zebra said:

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.

Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.

Most of them have been addressed in the thread already.

[SidewaysSi]

blueg33 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

zebra said:

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.

Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.

Most of them have been addressed in the thread already.

Indeed. It's the same old crap that gets talked about on every single Lotus thread.

[zebra]

Ozzie Osmond said:

zebra said:

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.

Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.

Okey dokey

Ozzie Osmond said:

Maybe. But I think Mr Gales needs to be backing a different horse to secure the future of his company.

Lotus is healthier under Gales than it has been for a long time. The new Exige is fast becoming a halo model. The Evora market is growing abroad.

Ozzie Osmond said:

Because Evora sales simply haven't achieved what's needed. And Exige S is only a sticking plaster on the wound.

An all-new car is IMO desperately needed. One which will part potential customers from their cash. Hopefully it will be a good one!

See response above.

Ozzie Osmond said:

Youcan buy a 2.7 litre 6-pot Cayman cheaper than an 1800cc 4-pot Elise. What are they thinking?

They are not being marketed to the same audience. They are not the same offering. If you want a cheap sports car you buy an mx5 that will do 80% of what an Elise can do.

However, running costs on an Elise will be substantially lower than a Cayman.

And residual v purchase is stronger too.

Ozzie Osmond said:

Ha-ha! It sounds as if "Sir" is a little challenged in the trouser department.

Clearly you are not as you drive a Boxster. Your boyfriend is very lucky.

Ozzie Osmond said:

Regrettably the VVA architecture has been an expensive mistake for Lotus, like the V8 engine which was also intended for sale to other manufacturers, and like the front-wheel-drive Elan M100 which was intended to revolutionise the sportscar business.

Is it a mistake to try and progress engineering. Lotus have been one of the leaders in their field of development for many years.

Has it sold, no, I agree there but developments at the time of a global recession are easy to view negatively in retrospect. However, they have used that technology to develop one of the best handling drivers cars in the world, technology that will continue to be developed and refined for a 'niche' market.

Most importantly for me as a Lotus owner it's how their cars make me feel. Many comparable cars either lack the emotion, fun and handling, unless I spend double the asking price and even then they're not guaranteed to put the same smile on my face.

[Robert Elise]

zebra said:

Companies like this, Morgan, Caterham and TVR will always 'be on the verge' of bankruptcy but you know what, the motoring world is richer with them around and Lotus' engineering department is in demand across the world for their expertise.

True. Very true.
Also bear in mind that Morgan and Caterham haven't innovated that much and their build quality is very bad.
Lotus have truly pushed the boundaries and in recent years produced a reliable product (ok, thanks to Welsh engines). That I celebrate.
Morgan charge more than Lotus for an old design and yet they still can't build a car that doesn't fall to bits as it leaves the factory. they're a joyful experience with many frustrations.

[Ozzie Osmond]

zebra said:

Your boyfriend is very lucky.

Oh dear, another one.

[zebra]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Oh dear, another one.

Interesting. Out of my post, that's all you respond to.

I think the truth is, that when Lotus or other niche cars get compared to Porsche products, it is in fact porsche drivers who feel threatened.

[kambites]

Probably time to stop feeding the troll now. He clearly isn't interested in the actual answers to any of the questions he raises unless they happen on to reinforce his bias.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 07:38

[StottyEvo]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Youcan buy a 2.7 litre 6-pot Cayman cheaper than an 1800cc 4-pot Elise. What are they thinking?

Upon reading this I thought you actually had made a good point. Until I did some research and saw the Elise starts at £30,900 and the Elise S £37,200 whilst the base Cayman is £39,694... Bearing in mind the Elise S is considerably faster than the Cayman and is supercharged, this levels the playing field somewhat.

[GroundEffect]

otolith said:

I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more margin in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).

I heard something similar, from a supplier to Porsche. Porsche apparently make $20k+ per 911 which is just ridiculous for this industry.

[kambites]

GroundEffect said:

otolith said:

I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more margin in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).

I heard something similar, from a supplier to Porsche. Porsche apparently make $20k+ per 911 which is just ridiculous for this industry.

All credit to them if they can though; it shows why people working in marketing tend to get paid more than engineers.

[leglessAlex]

StottyEvo said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Youcan buy a 2.7 litre 6-pot Cayman cheaper than an 1800cc 4-pot Elise. What are they thinking?

Upon reading this I thought you actually had made a good point. Until I did some research and saw the Elise starts at £30,900 and the Elise S £37,200 whilst the base Cayman is £39,694... Bearing in mind the Elise S is considerably faster than the Cayman and is supercharged, this levels the playing field somewhat.

Not to mention the fact that a base Cayman is, to my eyes at least, a pretty undesirable thing. Some decent wheels at least would make it look much better, but then it's over £11k more expensive than the base Elise and £4k more expensive than the Elise S.

Edited by leglessAlex on Friday 7th August 08:14

[moribund]

Also worth noting that my 118bhp Elise S1 cost it's first owner almost £25k over 15 years ago, so they've not even gone up all that much.

[LasseV]

So, some of the posters think that Lotus is expensive and Porsche is bargain? That is funny, because we all know how much profit Porsche makes per sports car. And tbh, i'm not sure how good those new porsche units are in the long run....

[Europa1]

Holy thread resurrection etc....

I followed one of these on the way into work today. Looked great, sounded rude, went like a stabbed rat away from lights/NSL signs etc. I have much want.

[leglessAlex]

fesuvious said:

Gave mine up for a Challenger Hellcat.

Can't believe I wasted 10months with the Evora400.

I giggle with the Hellcat. Never did that at any point with the Evora.

What didn't you like about it?

Not strictly relevant, but you've had one hell of a garage and there are some cracking cars in that list