RE: Lotus Evora 400 :Driven

RE: Lotus Evora 400 :Driven

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Discussion

kambites

55,888 posts

159 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
I think Aston used the Lotus design as the starting point for the "VH" platform so they've at least got some money out of the patents.

You say it's too expensive, but it appears to be cheaper than Porsche's steel monocoque platform used for the 911? OK some of that will be engine costs rather than platform cost but given the volumes involved I think the Evora's production costs look remarkably low.

I'm not sure where you get the information that Tesla were ever interested in VVA? I've not heard that before. In fact I think the Tesla Roadster predates VVA becoming production ready?



But yes, VVA clearly hasn't worked. Partly because Lotus have been in too much of a shambles to actually produce any new cars themselves recently and partly because they have, for whatever reason, failed to sell the technology to many other companies. Of course part of that might be down to the general assumption that Lotus were going to go bankrupt, which wouldn't have been very good for anyone relying on them to produce their chassis. hehe

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 5th August 12:21

otolith

36,685 posts

142 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more margin in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).

kambites

55,888 posts

159 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
otolith said:
I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more profit in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).
I guess that would make sense since they share so much. I suppose the rather ridiculous cost of the 911 is mostly huge profit margins. smile

moribund

3,141 posts

152 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
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Ozzie Osmond said:
Regrettably the VVA architecture has been an expensive mistake for Lotus
What a load of tosh. VVA has underpinned the *entire* range of cars for two whole companies (Lotus and Aston) over 15 and over 10 years respectively so it's hardly a failure.

zebra

4,481 posts

152 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
moribund said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Regrettably the VVA architecture has been an expensive mistake for Lotus
What a load of tosh. VVA has underpinned the *entire* range of cars for two whole companies (Lotus and Aston) over 15 and over 10 years respectively so it's hardly a failure.
Don't rise to it Moribund, he's a frustrated porsche driver trolling.
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Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

184 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
otolith said:
I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more margin in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).
100% correct. The best value for money often lies at the lower end of any range of similar cars.

One of the fundamental rules of building cars was once summarised as "it costs as much to screw the tail-lights onto a Mini as it costs to screw the tail-lights onto a Rolls Royce".

I was unaware that Aston used a relation of VVA and am interested to see that they were using it many years before Lotus adopted it for Evora. Bearing in mind Aston sell their cars for twice as much money as Lotus they are in with a much better chance of achieving profitability.

As for Lotus' having whole range of cars based on VVA - where are they???
Bolting the back of Evora onto the tub of an old Exige simply confirms the high cost issue.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

184 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
zebra said:
Don't rise to it Moribund, he's a frustrated porsche driver trolling.
One wonders why you guys are so super-sensitive about Lotus when it's been losing money hand-over-fist for years. Personally I'm a huge fan of the marque and want to see them back as a serious player in the sportscar market rather than fumbling about at the edges with special edition after special edition or, worse still, following a long list of other brands into bankruptcy. A small handful of die-hards will never achieve that for them.

kambites

55,888 posts

159 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
Bolting the back of Evora onto the tub of an old Exige simply confirms the high cost issue.
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean? Obviously a new VVA based tub wont cost nothing to develop so why would they develop a new tub when they already have one which is fit for purpose? They could have used the Evora's tub as-is but that would have produced an inferior car.

The point of VVA was never to allow them to make new tubs for no reason; it was to allow them to do so reasonably cheaply when there is a reason. Now perhaps that attitude is wrong because mainstream companies clearly make a lot of their money from repeat custom to people who buy the new model simply because it's new, rather than because it's better; but that's an attitude Lotus have thus far never adopted.


ETA: Also perhaps worth pointing out that VVA was never meant to bring down production costs. Quite the opposite in fact, compared to a steel space-frame like the 911 it was meant to bring down initial development costs at the expense production costs. This is why it's only suitable for relatively low production numbers where R&D costs tend to swamp build costs.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 5th August 14:36

zebra

4,481 posts

152 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
zebra said:
Don't rise to it Moribund, he's a frustrated porsche driver trolling.
One wonders why you guys are so super-sensitive about Lotus when it's been losing money hand-over-fist for years. Personally I'm a huge fan of the marque and want to see them back as a serious player in the sportscar market rather than fumbling about at the edges with special edition after special edition or, worse still, following a long list of other brands into bankruptcy. A small handful of die-hards will never achieve that for them.
I would suggest that we are not super-sensitive. I think the reaction was more to do with the suggestion in your statement implying Lotus had failed with what is actually considered by many to be an engineering benchmark.

Companies like this, Morgan, Caterham and TVR will always 'be on the verge' of bankruptcy but you know what, the motoring world is richer with them around and Lotus' engineering department is in demand across the world for their expertise.

....and as for being a 'huge fan', I don't think you are. Look at my car history - I'm a huge fan.

If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.


Tuna

9,406 posts

222 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ignoring Ozzie's wildly inaccurate history,I could never work out how far VVA got. When the Evora came out, and work started on the Esprit, I recall an interview saying it would allow them to get from blank sheet to production in 18 months. The Esprit project lasted far longer than that (even under Bahar), but it wasn't clear if VVA was part of the delay or that was more down to all the other politics. In theory at least, it should still be a useful 'tool' in the designer's bag, but I've no idea if that's true.

It's perhaps a sign of how Lotus has changed public perception in the last twelve months that we got 17 pages into this discussion before someone posted that they should build a new Esprit and/or MX-5 to save the company. At the moment, it doesn't look like they need saving.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

184 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
zebra said:
If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.
Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.

blueg33

20,306 posts

162 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
zebra said:
If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.
Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.
Most of them have been addressed in the thread already. confused

SidewaysSi

5,079 posts

172 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
zebra said:
If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.
Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.
Most of them have been addressed in the thread already. confused
Indeed. It's the same old crap that gets talked about on every single Lotus thread.

zebra

4,481 posts

152 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
zebra said:
If you want to make outrageous statements you need to back them up with evidence not hearsay or ignorance.
Perhaps you'd now like to run through some of the material points which I made and see if you have any response to them.
Okey dokey

Ozzie Osmond said:
Maybe. But I think Mr Gales needs to be backing a different horse to secure the future of his company.
Lotus is healthier under Gales than it has been for a long time. The new Exige is fast becoming a halo model. The Evora market is growing abroad.

Ozzie Osmond said:
Because Evora sales simply haven't achieved what's needed. And Exige S is only a sticking plaster on the wound.

An all-new car is IMO desperately needed. One which will part potential customers from their cash. Hopefully it will be a good one!
See response above.

Ozzie Osmond said:
Youcan buy a 2.7 litre 6-pot Cayman cheaper than an 1800cc 4-pot Elise. What are they thinking?
They are not being marketed to the same audience. They are not the same offering. If you want a cheap sports car you buy an mx5 that will do 80% of what an Elise can do.

However, running costs on an Elise will be substantially lower than a Cayman.

And residual v purchase is stronger too.

Ozzie Osmond said:
Ha-ha! It sounds as if "Sir" is a little challenged in the trouser department. smile
Clearly you are not as you drive a Boxster. Your boyfriend is very lucky.

Ozzie Osmond said:
Regrettably the VVA architecture has been an expensive mistake for Lotus, like the V8 engine which was also intended for sale to other manufacturers, and like the front-wheel-drive Elan M100 which was intended to revolutionise the sportscar business.
Is it a mistake to try and progress engineering. Lotus have been one of the leaders in their field of development for many years.

Has it sold, no, I agree there but developments at the time of a global recession are easy to view negatively in retrospect. However, they have used that technology to develop one of the best handling drivers cars in the world, technology that will continue to be developed and refined for a 'niche' market.

Most importantly for me as a Lotus owner it's how their cars make me feel. Many comparable cars either lack the emotion, fun and handling, unless I spend double the asking price and even then they're not guaranteed to put the same smile on my face.




Robert Elise

956 posts

83 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
zebra said:
Companies like this, Morgan, Caterham and TVR will always 'be on the verge' of bankruptcy but you know what, the motoring world is richer with them around and Lotus' engineering department is in demand across the world for their expertise.
True. Very true.
Also bear in mind that Morgan and Caterham haven't innovated that much and their build quality is very bad.
Lotus have truly pushed the boundaries and in recent years produced a reliable product (ok, thanks to Welsh engines). That I celebrate.
Morgan charge more than Lotus for an old design and yet they still can't build a car that doesn't fall to bits as it leaves the factory. they're a joyful experience with many frustrations.

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

184 months

Wednesday 5th August 2015
quotequote all
zebra said:
Your boyfriend is very lucky.
Oh dear, another one.

zebra

4,481 posts

152 months

Thursday 6th August 2015
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Ozzie Osmond said:
Oh dear, another one.
Interesting. Out of my post, that's all you respond to.

I think the truth is, that when Lotus or other niche cars get compared to Porsche products, it is in fact porsche drivers who feel threatened.

kambites

55,888 posts

159 months

Thursday 6th August 2015
quotequote all
Probably time to stop feeding the troll now. He clearly isn't interested in the actual answers to any of the questions he raises unless they happen on to reinforce his bias.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 07:38

StottyEvo

6,711 posts

101 months

Thursday 6th August 2015
quotequote all
Ozzie Osmond said:
Youcan buy a 2.7 litre 6-pot Cayman cheaper than an 1800cc 4-pot Elise. What are they thinking?
Upon reading this I thought you actually had made a good point. Until I did some research and saw the Elise starts at £30,900 and the Elise S £37,200 whilst the base Cayman is £39,694... Bearing in mind the Elise S is considerably faster than the Cayman and is supercharged, this levels the playing field somewhat.

GroundEffect

11,169 posts

94 months

Thursday 6th August 2015
quotequote all
otolith said:
I remember reading somewhere that the production costs for the 911 and the Cayman/Boxster were similar - there's just an awful lot more margin in a 911 (though of course that ignores development, tooling and marketing costs).
I heard something similar, from a supplier to Porsche. Porsche apparently make $20k+ per 911 which is just ridiculous for this industry.