RE: Lotus Exige Sport 350: Driven
Discussion
otolith said:
Were they ever really cheap?
Good point. Not really, no. The very early Elises could be considered to be modestly priced for the first six months or so and back in the self assembly era a chunk of tax could be saved by taking delivery of a box of parts. But they've always been a premium priced product, although today the various models are more competitively priced.
CABC said:
now we're posting coherent sense. Stop winding people up!
this is spot on. The V6 was the right move and is working. I'm sure (hope?) that Gales is fully aware and thinking ahead. He's a commercial car man after all. The downsizing game is starting as Lotus is getting PR again, so hopefully they can build into that. As you probably know, once people actually test drive a Lotus they often convert...
Gales needs to execute and then as success starts he'll need to ask for more cash with a well thought through development plan.
Still not sure who develops the engine though? But surely Toyota will have some interesting units in the pipeline.
I'm still not sure how much Lotus can realistically do to a crate engine other than a plastic cover in today's approval climate.
I've always said the Toyota engine was right for what they wanted to achieve from the absolute financial mess that they had put themselves in. Doesn't mean I think it's either a good engine or an appropriate one for a brand such as Lotus. It's just that they had almost no choice and it has served them well enough. It does a good enough job is about the finest accolade that has ever been lain at its doorstep. this is spot on. The V6 was the right move and is working. I'm sure (hope?) that Gales is fully aware and thinking ahead. He's a commercial car man after all. The downsizing game is starting as Lotus is getting PR again, so hopefully they can build into that. As you probably know, once people actually test drive a Lotus they often convert...
Gales needs to execute and then as success starts he'll need to ask for more cash with a well thought through development plan.
Still not sure who develops the engine though? But surely Toyota will have some interesting units in the pipeline.
I'm still not sure how much Lotus can realistically do to a crate engine other than a plastic cover in today's approval climate.
Gales has been the best thing that has happened to Lotus in 20 years. He has said that they want to increase volumes to match their factory potential rather than shrink their factory to match their recent volumes and to do that he needs to appeal to the more conventional buyer and not the extremist. They have the latter down up and have proven that firstly they have a very solid hold on that market but that secondly it is a tiny market too small to keep them afloat. They need mainstream buyers. They need to pull them out of other sports cars. He has stated that it is the Evora type product that will achieve this. They've lowered the sills and given it an auto. Two massive steps forward in achieving this but they are also fast approaching the point at which the historic financial reasoning for opting for the Toyota is being replaced by the need for something more appropriate for the brand's values.
They will be changing that engine regardless of what anyone says. They have no choice. But as you and others have said, for what? That's the big question and worthy of discussion. It'll still need to be cost effective but will need to be appropriate for what Lotus is. Those who think a big, chunky, low output V6 designed from the outset to push trucks and saloons along was ever anything other than a desperate sticking plaster to get Lotus through a near fatal period simply don't understand the brand values of such a historic company. No engineer ever chooses a V6 anyway, it's always chosen by the accountants. Just as it was here.
DonkeyApple said:
but they are also fast approaching the point at which the historic financial reasoning for opting for the Toyota is being replaced by the need for something more appropriate for the brand's values.
But what? I honestly can't think of anything which they could buy as a crate engine which would suit the Evora better than the current lump. Maybe the AMG V8 but it wouldn't be cheap, would be a damned slight heavier, and I'm not actually convinced it would produce a better car. Whilst I'm not a fan of the inline-4s in the Elise; aside from the badge, I just can't understand what's meant to be wrong with the Toyota V6. There are few if any engines which can match it for noise, power, weight and reliability without costing many times more (and not a huge number at any price).
Edited by kambites on Monday 11th January 19:17
Impasse said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3cs5u5d14
DonkeyApple said:
I've always said the Toyota engine was right for what they wanted to achieve from the absolute financial mess that they had put themselves in. Doesn't mean I think it's either a good engine or an appropriate one for a brand such as Lotus. It's just that they had almost no choice and it has served them well enough. It does a good enough job is about the finest accolade that has ever been lain at its doorstep.
Gales has been the best thing that has happened to Lotus in 20 years. He has said that they want to increase volumes to match their factory potential rather than shrink their factory to match their recent volumes and to do that he needs to appeal to the more conventional buyer and not the extremist. They have the latter down up and have proven that firstly they have a very solid hold on that market but that secondly it is a tiny market too small to keep them afloat. They need mainstream buyers. They need to pull them out of other sports cars. He has stated that it is the Evora type product that will achieve this. They've lowered the sills and given it an auto. Two massive steps forward in achieving this but they are also fast approaching the point at which the historic financial reasoning for opting for the Toyota is being replaced by the need for something more appropriate for the brand's values.
They will be changing that engine regardless of what anyone says. They have no choice. But as you and others have said, for what? That's the big question and worthy of discussion. It'll still need to be cost effective but will need to be appropriate for what Lotus is. Those who think a big, chunky, low output V6 designed from the outset to push trucks and saloons along was ever anything other than a desperate sticking plaster to get Lotus through a near fatal period simply don't understand the brand values of such a historic company. No engineer ever chooses a V6 anyway, it's always chosen by the accountants. Just as it was here.
yes to the Evora.Gales has been the best thing that has happened to Lotus in 20 years. He has said that they want to increase volumes to match their factory potential rather than shrink their factory to match their recent volumes and to do that he needs to appeal to the more conventional buyer and not the extremist. They have the latter down up and have proven that firstly they have a very solid hold on that market but that secondly it is a tiny market too small to keep them afloat. They need mainstream buyers. They need to pull them out of other sports cars. He has stated that it is the Evora type product that will achieve this. They've lowered the sills and given it an auto. Two massive steps forward in achieving this but they are also fast approaching the point at which the historic financial reasoning for opting for the Toyota is being replaced by the need for something more appropriate for the brand's values.
They will be changing that engine regardless of what anyone says. They have no choice. But as you and others have said, for what? That's the big question and worthy of discussion. It'll still need to be cost effective but will need to be appropriate for what Lotus is. Those who think a big, chunky, low output V6 designed from the outset to push trucks and saloons along was ever anything other than a desperate sticking plaster to get Lotus through a near fatal period simply don't understand the brand values of such a historic company. No engineer ever chooses a V6 anyway, it's always chosen by the accountants. Just as it was here.
But i also believe there is still a market for Elise/Exige, globally too. (not that a manufacturer can easily focus on UK or Europe alone).
The whole 'toy' market is vibrant, globally. It's obviously great fun, the middle class are growing and can afford it, and commuting cars are necessarily more boring. This segment is not enough for a company, but it does exist and provides credibility for the bigger, yet quite distinct, cousin in the Evora. And the SUV....
Does anyone know the actual breakdown of how Porsche make money, model by model?
robm3 said:
I see the Toyota engine as a positive when it comes to an ownership proposition. Naturally due to perceived reliability.
Surprised so many argue different.
Exactly, engine from the worlds most reliable manufacturer with worldwide parts availability.Surprised so many argue different.
Evora's dont seem to go below £30k used, but endless chocolate engined pork for £5k (great value though!)
Sounds epic on the videos ive seen. But these threads always attract the doom mongers.
otolith said:
Is this correct?
A quick Google doesn't give any official figures but seems to indicate that the Porsche flat six is around 180kg and up. Apparently SportAuto weighed a 3.8 RS engine and it was 183kg, but I've no idea how bare an engine that was. Zyp said:
Someone else mentioned the weight - 163kgs.
A fair chunk less than a 3.4 Porsche engine.
A fair chunk less than a 3.4 Porsche engine.
CABC said:
yes to the Evora.
But i also believe there is still a market for Elise/Exige, globally too. (not that a manufacturer can easily focus on UK or Europe alone).
The whole 'toy' market is vibrant, globally. It's obviously great fun, the middle class are growing and can afford it, and commuting cars are necessarily more boring. This segment is not enough for a company, but it does exist and provides credibility for the bigger, yet quite distinct, cousin in the Evora. And the SUV....
Does anyone know the actual breakdown of how Porsche make money, model by model?
Yup. Agree. It's essential to Lotus but can never be large enough to actually pay all their bills such as they are structured. But Gales has viewed global profit growth as coming via the Evora and the move closer to having a much more mainstream product. But i also believe there is still a market for Elise/Exige, globally too. (not that a manufacturer can easily focus on UK or Europe alone).
The whole 'toy' market is vibrant, globally. It's obviously great fun, the middle class are growing and can afford it, and commuting cars are necessarily more boring. This segment is not enough for a company, but it does exist and provides credibility for the bigger, yet quite distinct, cousin in the Evora. And the SUV....
Does anyone know the actual breakdown of how Porsche make money, model by model?
Porsche makes its largest margins via its SUVs and volumes. As you look at the Porsche products that get closer and closer to the Lotus ethos then numbers plummet and give an indication as to just how large the specialist sports car market is.
But Porsche make most of their money from their 50.2% holding in VW Group. So technically, their most important vehicle is going to be something like a Seat
zebra said:
Gavan will get a decent time out of it once the weather improves and the restrictions are lifted, but there's always going to be slower traffic getting in the way at the Ring.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVvgT2vytRY
leglessAlex said:
A quick Google doesn't give any official figures but seems to indicate that the Porsche flat six is around 180kg and up. Apparently SportAuto weighed a 3.8 RS engine and it was 183kg, but I've no idea how bare an engine that was.
Doesn't sound as if the Toyota lump is so much of a boat anchor in context then.DonkeyApple said:
Yup. Agree. It's essential to Lotus but can never be large enough to actually pay all their bills such as they are structured. But Gales has viewed global profit growth as coming via the Evora and the move closer to having a much more mainstream product.
Porsche makes its largest margins via its SUVs and volumes. As you look at the Porsche products that get closer and closer to the Lotus ethos then numbers plummet and give an indication as to just how large the specialist sports car market is.
But Porsche make most of their money from their 50.2% holding in VW Group. So technically, their most important vehicle is going to be something like a Seat
i wonder if the GT4 actually loses money? But the halo of the GT series is priceless.Porsche makes its largest margins via its SUVs and volumes. As you look at the Porsche products that get closer and closer to the Lotus ethos then numbers plummet and give an indication as to just how large the specialist sports car market is.
But Porsche make most of their money from their 50.2% holding in VW Group. So technically, their most important vehicle is going to be something like a Seat
So, do we need Proton to develop some aspiration? After Datsun, Hyundai, Kia why not the turn of the (wealthy) Malaysians?
Maybe the board want someone to get a grip of Lotus first and then think about global exploitation and platform sharing.
CABC said:
otolith said:
Doesn't sound as if the Toyota lump is so much of a boat anchor in context then.
as i understand it it's not so much the engine but the pig iron of a rear subframe. The Elise platform was alwys handling below 300hp.Without time or budget the rear gained a lot of weight.
CABC said:
i wonder if the GT4 actually loses money? But the halo of the GT series is priceless.
Unless it's more different from the regular Cayman than I realise, I'd have thought the GT4 would be the most profitable Cayman model? Usually top-end versions of cars have greater profit margins than the lower end models. Does the GT4 have any significant bespoke parts? Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff