RE: Lotus Exige Sport 350: Driven
Discussion
i'm not defending the V6 per se, but i thought the design and balancing of this configuration had improved immensely over last last few decades.
I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
CABC said:
i'm not defending the V6 per se, but i thought the design and balancing of this configuration had improved immensely over last last few decades.
I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
With turbochargers on everything and the enormous efforts manufacturers go to to isolate the drivers from the mechanical elements of the car, I genuinely struggle to tell the difference in many cases.I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
CABC said:
i'm not defending the V6 per se, but i thought the design and balancing of this configuration had improved immensely over last last few decades.
I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
That's true. And to give the Toyota unit its merit it is a 60 degree design which I believe is considered a superior design to the 90 which is very often derived from a V8 design as seen with Jag and Merc(?) both of whom have been using it as a stop gap and are allegedly reverting to I6 for that role. I6 is the purest but the differences aren't what they used to be.
Same for I4s if we're honest. No they're not sexy but neither are they the rough old dogs of the mid-twentieth century.
And also, as we spoke about yesterday, with Porsche going to 4 and with Ferrari also dropping cylinders, among others, maybe the days of viewing the V6 as the poor cousin will be coming to an end? But it still seems to leave the issue of where Lotus go next for continued power output hikes if they are to continue this recent trend?
Can they get 500bhp out of that design and for it still be the reliable unit it has been?
I don't get the hatred for the V6. I'm an engineer and they are a packaging marvel being about the same length as an I4 with not much greater width in 60 deg form. Lot more tuneful than an I4 too. I even prefer the noise to a flat 6.
Out of interest why would you think a V6 is cheaper to make than an I6 if, as you say, the V6 is the accountant's choice?
Out of interest why would you think a V6 is cheaper to make than an I6 if, as you say, the V6 is the accountant's choice?
One other point. The use of flat engines by Porsche was an accountants choice, the history of the company and the fact they borrowed engineering from the beetle in the post war period stuck when they eventually evolved from flat 4 to flat 6. However it is matter of historical fact that the decision to start with flat 4 and beetle-u-like components/design was a pragmatic choice to save money (or rather make the possibility of a Porsche sports car company a practical reality at all).
NJH said:
It isn't he just latches onto anything he can to slag off Lotus.
V6 has two sets of cams, two cylinder heads etc. almost certainly going to cost more to make than an I6 surely.
i think it's packaging. I6 is so long it would take major rethink in a car not designed for it. Lotus had to strengthen the subframe for the V6 but the tub redesign was none or minimal.V6 has two sets of cams, two cylinder heads etc. almost certainly going to cost more to make than an I6 surely.
Anyway, I think Lotus need a humming 3 cyl package with minimal turbo lag. Those days are coming...
unpc said:
I don't get the hatred for the V6. I'm an engineer and they are a packaging marvel being about the same length as an I4 with not much greater width in 60 deg form. Lot more tuneful than an I4 too. I even prefer the noise to a flat 6.
Out of interest why would you think a V6 is cheaper to make than an I6 if, as you say, the V6 is the accountant's choice?
There is no hatred. People seem to be missing the points here. Out of interest why would you think a V6 is cheaper to make than an I6 if, as you say, the V6 is the accountant's choice?
1. If Lotus continue the BHP race with others how do they do so with this engine?
2. If Lotus continue moving into the premium market are they going to encounter issues with using a Toyota V6. An Evora is now basically an £80k purchase. Gales aims to triple Evora sales so that means finding a lot of new customers. It also means understanding why a lot more people are choosing not to buy a Lotus than are choosing to do so in this sector. Brand perception is playing a key role here. The brand has for years promoted being cheap, affordable etc for high performance.
The engine has arguably been one of the best things Lotus has done to target the mainstream market, I don't think anyone would dispute this. However, Gales has openly said where he wants to take the company and the brand and it clearly opens the floor to the question as to whether the Toyota V6 has peaked in terms of helping Lotus on its journey.
Questioning an aspect of a company can't be equated to hating, that is an absolutely baffling accusation and a low level of thinking and behaving that really is best left on the football terraces frankly.
Is it about the badge? Doesn't seem to matter that Lamborghini have been using a VAG engine for years, and I'd have always said that the "special" engine was more central to a Lamborghini than a Lotus. So would a VW engine be more acceptable than a Toyota engine? I can't see why it would be, but nor can I think of any other engine suppliers with a more upmarket image who have anything suitable and would be willing to share it.
They could always take to describing it as a Lexus engine.
They could always take to describing it as a Lexus engine.
otolith said:
Is it about the badge? Doesn't seem to matter that Lamborghini have been using a VAG engine for years, and I'd have always said that the "special" engine was more central to a Lamborghini than a Lotus. So would a VW engine be more acceptable than a Toyota engine? I can't see why it would be, but nor can I think of any other engine suppliers with a more upmarket image who have anything suitable and would be willing to share it.
They could always take to describing it as a Lexus engine.
I'd say it's about the badge overall rather than the badge on the engine. Has lotus ever really moved away from the 'Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious' notion that plenty of people have about them? I'm not sure. They could always take to describing it as a Lexus engine.
Anyway, I'm not sure using that particular engine in the Huracan and R8 is a great example, yes it's a VAG engine but you wouldn't know it if you heard it start up or drive by, my word it sounds phenomenal. It is a very, very "special" engine, especially given that McLaren and Ferrari now have somewhat muted turbocharged lumps.
The automatic gearbox is, I think, fairly central to Gales' plan to sell more cars and it's here that Toyota is less than ideal. As far as I know Toyota doesn't have a twin clutch they can use and a slushbox is always going to be a bit crap in comparison. It'll be interesting to see what happens and whether they bother to make the auto any better than it is now*.
*I'll admit, I haven't driven one, I'd need a car with hand controls. This is purely based on reviews and my own experience of torque-converter gearboxes.
otolith said:
They could always take to describing it as a Lexus engine.
That's true. 
. Like Lamborghini say theirs is from Audi? 
The difference between Lamboghini and Lotus in brand perception is that ever since the end of the Esprit era Lotus have been peddling a mantra of 'cheap performance'. But in the Gales era (and arguably from Bahar's time) they have clearly been working to reverse 20 years of what has transpired to be brand damage. Lamborghini, conversely, has always been a premium brand and so the risk they take with their engine outsourcing is arguably a different one, certainly coming from the opposing direction.
DonkeyApple said:
2. If Lotus continue moving into the premium market are they going to encounter issues with using a Toyota V6.
It's not that it's a toyota v6, it's that to go over 400bhp you need to add (lots) more cooling to this engine, both to the oil and the charge.You do not really have the choice of a front mount intercooler, so you are chargecooling.
You're then starting to load unwanted weight into the rear of the car, upsetting its balance (IMO).
The same would be happening if this was a honda, ford, bmw engine - there's no need to single out toyota as the problem.
Do people really buy a lotus car because of its top-trumps HP figure? I would have thought not (of all the car brands). 400 is plenty in an evora, I'd say 350 is also plenty in an exige.
gavsdavs said:
DonkeyApple said:
2. If Lotus continue moving into the premium market are they going to encounter issues with using a Toyota V6.
It's not that it's a toyota v6, it's that to go over 400bhp you need to add (lots) more cooling to this engine, both to the oil and the charge.You do not really have the choice of a front mount intercooler, so you are chargecooling.
You're then starting to load unwanted weight into the rear of the car, upsetting its balance (IMO).
The same would be happening if this was a honda, ford, bmw engine - there's no need to single out toyota as the problem.
Do people really buy a lotus car because of its top-trumps HP figure? I would have thought not (of all the car brands). 400 is plenty in an evora, I'd say 350 is also plenty in an exige.
The one thing that Gales and Bahar have understood is that to be viable they must sell to general sports car enthusiasts and not just extreme Lotus enthusiasts. That's why he has made all these changes to date and that is why he has been so far successful. Does the normal sports car enthusiast car about top trumps? Catagorically yes. Brand perception is everything.
I completely agree that the current outputs are more than enough in terms of usability and driving etc. But that's irrelevant. If the others keep adding more power then so will Lotus have to. But then the downsizing of competitors engines may hopefully mean that the BHP arms race is coming to an end. But if that is the case then top trumps will be fought on a different set of numbers. Maybe weight? Something Lotus should win all day on but they gave away that advantage with the Evora when they bet on BHP instead and it's now quite a heavy car.
gavsdavs said:
Do people really buy a lotus car because of its top-trumps HP figure? I would have thought not (of all the car brands). 400 is plenty in an evora, I'd say 350 is also plenty in an exige.
No, nor do they decide not to buy because of the lack of power. They choose not to buy because the Exige is basic, noisy, flimsy in its construction, has an unrefined interior and is an absolute pig to get in and out of. It's a horrible car to live with. Adding 100bhp might attract a handful of additional sales but it doesn't alter the fact that it's a glorified kit car that few people have the patience of inclination to live with.I've got one by the way but I'm one of the few who are prepared to accept the cars limitations in return for the reward of its abilities.
I'd say you're correct with the Exige. It is a product that is aimed at a much more focused market and is designed specifically to cater for that. Lotus have that side properly catered for but it is a small niche in the grand scheme of global car sales so almost impossible to expand into rapidly.
But Gales sees group volume growth being driven by the Evora and by capturing ever more sales from the mainstream market and it is there that these points have their relevance.
But Gales sees group volume growth being driven by the Evora and by capturing ever more sales from the mainstream market and it is there that these points have their relevance.
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