RE: Lotus Exige Sport 350: Driven

[Bill]

Zyp said:

If you don't get it, you don't get it. Simple.

This is it. And if you don't get it, arguing for adding tyres and comfort is just daft. Less weight is Lotus's USP.

[SidewaysSi]

Bill said:

Zyp said:

If you don't get it, you don't get it. Simple.

This is it. And if you don't get it, arguing for adding tyres and comfort is just daft. Less weight is Lotus's USP.

Indeed, go buy a turbo'd, electrically steered, PDK'd Porsche instead.

[diluculophile]

Love the exposed linkage - wouldn't want to clean it.

Quick enough that, in the real world, you would never need any more performance.

Would have to be in black, so the black bits on the outside didn't stand out. And I agree - no yellow tartan. Black alcantara will be fine thanks.

[blueg33]

PorscheGT4 said:

bring out the charged cooled one already, all these 10bhp more stty models area bit meh !

And still less torque than my NA car !

This guy always seems to be frightened by Lotus. | think he is struggling to justify his own car choice.

[Hamma]

Dan Trent said:

Had a chat with chief dynamics guy Ross Restell about this; he said the charge cooling components required for the 400hp engine would add kilos and potentially end up with a worse overall power to weight ratio as a result . He also made the point it'd demand bigger wheels and tyres, bigger brakes and the rest, further adding to the weight and taking the car in the opposite direction to the way they wanted to go. I also asked him about the LSD and, again, he said it would cause more problems than it would solve. Their whole aim was to reduce turn-in understeer and the diff would have impacted on that for marginal gains on corner exit in his words. But then Lotus has always been against them as a rule anyway so not an unexpected answer. Given the way the car goes on even a greasy track like today's I'd say the traction is pretty good and you rarely sense the inside wheel spinning power away. True, you can't rotate it into the corner on the throttle like you can with the diff-equipped Evora 400. But you can turn in faster, carry more speed through and be so dependent on the traction on exit to get the speed up the straight. Which is all very Lotus.

And bigger tyres? Given how over-wheeled and tyred most Caymans are I'm with them on that. See again weight, etc..

Cheers,

Dan

That's disappointing to hear, but not unexpected. You can't add just anything new you want (like charge cooling) into the engine bay and expect it to fit. I hope that's the reason for no 400hp engine (should be more than that with a 3.5 litre engine) and that's not just a cover for not having the will to invest in modifications needed.

I'm not saying that 350hp is a catastrophe either, just that there are consumer behaviour realities and also that comparisons are made. If your car has similar power to lots of 'normal sedans' and loads of hatchbacks, that might hurt your image. Why make a brilliant car and then have it seem less than brilliant to some potential customers and all of the public, who make up the image of the car?

About the bigger tires and wider track: sure, the current chassis was designed for that configuration. But seeing as the competition (and even small hatchbacks) have started an arms race anyone wanting to stay in business can't ignore it either. My humble opinion is that Lotus has to bring out a new version or completely new chassis so they can keep competing, or actually so they can be on top in mechanical grip.

It's a shame to see Lotus doing great work and then far less admirable work of Ze Germans and the like is propped up by more mechanical grip and they equal or beat Lotus in lap times. Sure, you can ignore lap times in the performance car market but let's see how well that works out in the long run...

The lack of LSD is more of a personal preference thing, and a question of 'feel'. Also, it bugs me that such an inexpensive part is not available at all, as including it would of course mean a whole re-evaluation of suspension setup. Adapting the suspension to suit an added LSD is something that owners can't do on their own, and going aftermarket seems stupid when paying for a Lotus product which is famed especially for providing great chassis setups. Who knows how good the results will be? I'd happily pay £2000 for the LSD as an optional extra, and actually even more since having it as an extra from Lotus would mean that they'd offer a factory suspension setup to go with it. That's how important I think it would be. But I know I'm not in the majority and the car works great for most without it. And it isn't needed for good sales numbers.

[sjc]

For those that don't get it , I'd wager in every proper driving hoon, (and that's not long sweeping one degree bends or going in the Autobahn but properly fun roads )this little thing will be right up the chuff of just about every bloated 200k supercar you can mention,due to it's chassis, punch, steering and probably most importantly.. its size .
We should be happy these sort of things are still built.

[SidewaysSi]

Hamma said:

Dan Trent said:

Had a chat with chief dynamics guy Ross Restell about this; he said the charge cooling components required for the 400hp engine would add kilos and potentially end up with a worse overall power to weight ratio as a result . He also made the point it'd demand bigger wheels and tyres, bigger brakes and the rest, further adding to the weight and taking the car in the opposite direction to the way they wanted to go. I also asked him about the LSD and, again, he said it would cause more problems than it would solve. Their whole aim was to reduce turn-in understeer and the diff would have impacted on that for marginal gains on corner exit in his words. But then Lotus has always been against them as a rule anyway so not an unexpected answer. Given the way the car goes on even a greasy track like today's I'd say the traction is pretty good and you rarely sense the inside wheel spinning power away. True, you can't rotate it into the corner on the throttle like you can with the diff-equipped Evora 400. But you can turn in faster, carry more speed through and be so dependent on the traction on exit to get the speed up the straight. Which is all very Lotus.

And bigger tyres? Given how over-wheeled and tyred most Caymans are I'm with them on that. See again weight, etc..

Cheers,

Dan

That's disappointing to hear, but not unexpected. You can't add just anything new you want (like charge cooling) into the engine bay and expect it to fit. I hope that's the reason for no 400hp engine (should be more than that with a 3.5 litre engine) and that's not just a cover for not having the will to invest in modifications needed.

I'm not saying that 350hp is a catastrophe either, just that there are consumer behaviour realities and also that comparisons are made. If your car has similar power to lots of 'normal sedans' and loads of hatchbacks, that might hurt your image. Why make a brilliant car and then have it seem less than brilliant to some potential customers and all of the public, who make up the image of the car?

About the bigger tires and wider track: sure, the current chassis was designed for that configuration. But seeing as the competition (and even small hatchbacks) have started an arms race anyone wanting to stay in business can't ignore it either. My humble opinion is that Lotus has to bring out a new version or completely new chassis so they can keep competing, or actually so they can be on top in mechanical grip.

It's a shame to see Lotus doing great work and then far less admirable work of Ze Germans and the like is propped up by more mechanical grip and they equal or beat Lotus in lap times. Sure, you can ignore lap times in the performance car market but let's see how well that works out in the long run...

The lack of LSD is more of a personal preference thing, and a question of 'feel'. Also, it bugs me that such an inexpensive part is not available at all, as including it would of course mean a whole re-evaluation of suspension setup. Adapting the suspension to suit an added LSD is something that owners can't do on their own, and going aftermarket seems stupid when paying for a Lotus product which is famed especially for providing great chassis setups. Who knows how good the results will be? I'd happily pay £2000 for the LSD as an optional extra, and actually even more since having it as an extra from Lotus would mean that they'd offer a factory suspension setup to go with it. That's how important I think it would be. But I know I'm not in the majority and the car works great for most without it. And it isn't needed for good sales numbers.

Absolutely - I am expecting the lack of a diff on the 570S to kill sales.

[Hamma]

All in all, I hope that some commenters don't respond to discussion and voicing of opinions too harshly and don't read it as raging criticism. I also hope that everyone remembers that ignoring the competition in the industry, ignoring consumer behaviour of everyone but the smallest of local niches may not be the best business model and probably results in there being no production at all in the end. I don't think that defenders of niche British car industry should be too arrogant as they are leaning on ruins of a once massive industry that was completely mismanaged.

And about the Lotus having 'enough' grip: sure it does in a way. But compared to the competition not necessarily. Depends if they want to compete with other extreme performance cars or not. Or just performance hatchbacks and sedans with 'sports car body shapes on top'. Lotus goes through all that weight reduction, therefore also requiring their customers to endure far more noise, discomfort and worse practicality. And then the 'more ordinary' and 'too heavy' 'un-pure' Germans etc. beat the Exige S:s lap time and many performance figures comfortably. Why give them that advantage?

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vergleichstest/porsche-cayman-gt4-vs-lotus-exige-s-rennstrecke-zeiten-9854906.html?show=3

If Lotus would equal them in 'basic specs' like track width and tire size then all that weight reduction and chassis magic would actually bring results in comparative performance. Now it seems that Lotus is unable to change anything in that very old chassis design and only have to work on details as well as their campaign in component weight reduction. Just to stay relevant. I hate that many e.g. Porsche fans (or just magazine readers) think that Caymans and 911s are the pinnacle of driving dynamics and they dismiss Lotus as something built in a shed just because of that handicap/unfair advantage. You can't force Porsche and the rest reduce tire size so that Lotus doesn't have to change. In a day when small hatchbacks have 255 width front tires and performance behemoths use 305 tires in front, Lotus' 205 front tires just seem like stone-age. Might help them with their claimed aim of improving turn-in sharpness too...

Of course Lotus should keep on with the mix that makes most sense and works best for them as a whole. Right now I'm sure going with the Exige as-is and making small improvements to it is the way to go. My point is more about what kind of step they need to be able to do in the near future, and then continue as they are doing right now: honing their brilliant basis. I love what they're doing right now, I'm just sharing in their (assumed) frustration that they're in the stage of the product cycle where they have to use a great but (well) aged platform for a while longer.

I hope they come up with an equally genius platform as the current one as soon as possible. Because I'm sure they can do as brilliant work on that one in the future as they have done now. Just to be clear: I absolutely love the Exige S (and now the Sport 350), I've been discussing the last details that would make it completely perfect for me!

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 11:08

Edited by Hamma on Saturday 12th December 11:20

[Alias218]

As dynamically outstanding as these cars are, they just don't look good. Lotus has kept adding to the S2 platform (which this is, not S3 as some insist) to the point that it looks a mess. The Evora is the same.

To reference a thread from the other day regarding cars that look better pre-facelift, the Evora and Exige/Elise are my numbers 1 and 2.

Having said that, I would still love to own either!

[Hamma]

SidewaysSi said:

Absolutely - I am expecting the lack of a diff on the 570S to kill sales.

Another great example of a British company taking a shortcut and calling it 'purity', then blaming critics for 'not understanding'.

Seriously, I was thinking of McLaren and others who have stopped using LSD:s, and that's why I wrote that they can get away with that one. I very much oppose diff-less cars personally and reject the idea that a few kg and a few hundred $/€/£ would in any way outweigh the effect of the diff or negate the need for it in driving feel.

They must've thrown one in the Evora 400 for a reason!

[Lyons]

I really like the detail work they are doing to refine the car. Interior is starting to look good too. Think the 400bhp engine will come out as the next model year revision - 400hp might sell well...

Still not tempted by one though, as it is really a pumped-up Elise trying to compete with cars in the catagory above. And also, the engine seems to have little character.

I would be tempted in the following Lotus:
Evora chassis - 2 seat only
Longitudinally mounted engine, utillising space gained from removing rear seats.
Really decent engine from another manufacture: - Ford ecoboost v6 or GT350 V8, Lexus v8. Nissan GTR 6, Camero v6.
Sub 1400kg weight

More Esprit than Exige really...

[Bill]

Hamma said:

Another great example of a British company taking a shortcut and calling it 'purity', then blaming critics for 'not understanding'.

Did you read Dan's explanation, straight from the horse's mouth. They value feel and fun over ultimate grip, and don't need wider tyres and track because there is less weight to deal with in the first place. And then there's the question of unsprung weight, less need for over managed damping etc etc.

All these elements come together to make the car what it is, which is the opposite of what you want. Thankfully there are enough people who get it.

[Oilchange]

I'm wondering about this'aged' platform you keep going on about. It's a modern, proven and excellent model that Aston Martin and Tesla have adopted, been tweeked and adjusted over the last twenty years to be the stiffest and lightest (bar going carbon fibre composite) in it's class. And the competition (Porsche) use what? Pressed steel! The oldest in existence...

As for the larger wheels, really? You want your Lotus to look like a council estate 1990's Audi A4 with the subsequent awful ride and handling? Or do you want it to ride and handle like a Lotus should? The best in the business.

Sometimes I think they should simply offer these options just to attract the business of those who 'don't get it'. Give the customer what they want...

ETA:
Hey, Hamma, why don't you fill in a bit more on your profile so we can see where you are coming from. It's all well and good criticising cars but unless you are prepared to stand up and be counted with a credible alternative or some engineering reasoning you carry little weight. No details in your profile just says to me you are hiding behind your anonymity...

Edited by Oilchange on Saturday 12th December 11:50

[NJH]

Depends on the basic vehicle design. I have a turbo 2 litre FWD hatchback with an ATB differential, it really needs it and is better for it. The Porsche 911 likewise really needs to have a friction plate type LSD for braking and corner entry stability (or achieve similar with electronics). In both cases the diff is needed to overcome basic flaws in the vehicle design. Lotus should be applauded for sticking to their guns on vehicle design and not band-aiding basic design flaws with LSDs and electronics etc. etc.

[rallycross]

No LSD on a track focused model is very strange indeed.

[Oilchange]

Hamma said:
All in all, I hope that some commenters don't respond to discussion and voicing of opinions too harshly and don't read it as raging criticism.

then said:

Another great example of a British company taking a shortcut and calling it 'purity', then blaming critics for 'not understanding'. tongue out

'raging criticism'?

I hate the term 'Troll' but...

[SidewaysSi]

Lyons said:

I really like the detail work they are doing to refine the car. Interior is starting to look good too. Think the 400bhp engine will come out as the next model year revision - 400hp might sell well...

Still not tempted by one though, as it is really a pumped-up Elise trying to compete with cars in the catagory above. And also, the engine seems to have little character.

I would be tempted in the following Lotus:
Evora chassis - 2 seat only
Longitudinally mounted engine, utillising space gained from removing rear seats.
Really decent engine from another manufacture: - Ford ecoboost v6 or GT350 V8, Lexus v8. Nissan GTR 6, Camero v6.
Sub 1400kg weight

More Esprit than Exige really...

Would that be as good on a track? And all for £55k?

For the money, there is little to touch it IMO.

[Hamma]

Bill said:

Did you read Dan's explanation, straight from the horse's mouth. They value feel and fun over ultimate grip, and don't need wider tyres and track because there is less weight to deal with in the first place. And then there's the question of unsprung weight, less need for over managed damping etc etc.

All these elements come together to make the car what it is, which is the opposite of what you want. Thankfully there are enough people who get it.

IF you believe their excuses... Why did they put an LSD in the Evora then? Isn't it more plausible that they just didn't want to redo the suspension setup at this point and the electronic 'led' is 'good enough'? An open diff brings no extra feel or fun, exactly the opposite IMO.

They sure seem to need wider tires and track as competitors with porky cars and worse power-to-weight ratio are better dynamically. That stuff adding weight seems more like an excuse as well. This is much more understandable though, as that would be a major redesign and will probably only be doable when the whole platform is redesigned.

The Exige isn't the opposite of what I want, it's pretty much exactly what I want. I wouldn't change almost anything (though lots of updates will of course always be a plus), just want an LSD and the best version of their engine in it. The track width and rubber size issue is a comment, and I'm sure this is a place to discuss these things.

[kambites]

I doubt it would be particularly hard to get 400bhp out of the engine and fit an LSD if you really want to. You can get a Quaife LSD which fits for about £1k; I've no idea how much fitting would be.

You might have to lose the boot to make space for the charge cooler.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 12th December 13:19

[Oilchange]

The thing about LSDs is that while they give extra grip, when they let go they do so quite sharply which in a short wheel base car would be very quickly. Look at the Clio V6 tests

It might just turn a brilliant car into a death trap... Especially in the wet, with all that torque going through worn tyres, coming off a roundabout, in second gear with all those camber changes.

Which seems to be the time and place most people spin turbo Esprits...