RE: Porsche 911 R: PH Videoblog
Discussion
MarJay said:
Is it basically an excuse for Journos to drive it? We can't buy one, so it's hardly consumer advice. Even with a Lambo or Aston we could actually buy one if we had the wedge.
On that thought process 'we' can buy one in the second hand market.... it's just the 'wedge' has to be considerably higher than most.Mach said:
No real interest in reading about this either.
As you say, a very strange business model and apparently designed to alienate loyal customers.
I've loved 911's since I was a child and I've owned 3, none of which were new, but all of which were maintained through the Porsche network with genuine parts etc.
However, I'm now in a position to consider buying new but as they won't sell me a 911 that I actually want (or a GT4 for that matter) I shall go elsewhere.
Porsche do realise we have choices right?
As per every other modern motor manufacturer they are choosing to pander to elite customers, it's a lovely cash cow for them. Meanwhile the range will be propped up by the SUV's, leaving those that want a hardcore driving experience, either hanging onto what they have, or as you say, going elsewhere. As you say, a very strange business model and apparently designed to alienate loyal customers.
I've loved 911's since I was a child and I've owned 3, none of which were new, but all of which were maintained through the Porsche network with genuine parts etc.
However, I'm now in a position to consider buying new but as they won't sell me a 911 that I actually want (or a GT4 for that matter) I shall go elsewhere.
Porsche do realise we have choices right?
Matt UK said:
PunterCam said:
I think it's nice Porsche limited numbers. The amount of self entitled pricks you hear moaning about it makes me very happy.
The grapes are sour today
And the thread direction/content predictable.
Everyone understands everyone wants one...ok
Everyone understands that Porsche have limited it...ok
Is there any chance a PH members who claim to be car enthusiasts could just celebrate a decent car?
Quickmoose said:
Matt UK said:
PunterCam said:
I think it's nice Porsche limited numbers. The amount of self entitled pricks you hear moaning about it makes me very happy.
The grapes are sour todayAnd the thread direction/content predictable.
Everyone understands everyone wants one...ok
Everyone understands that Porsche have limited it...ok
Is there any chance a PH members who claim to be car enthusiasts could just celebrate a decent car?
And also, let's just look at the whole 'limited' thing.. I very much doubt Porsche set out to create the situation it has found itself in.
They thought the market wanted faster, more tech, faster, more tech - so it went in that direction.
It always knew a group of traditionalist would resist, but hey, you got to build for the majority - they're a business.
But that group of traditionalist were bigger than they thought and started buying older 911's and paying top dollar for Singer type cars. Hmmm, this type demand is good for 'Brand' and 'emotional connection' soft measures, but it's not shifting metal off of their production lines.
So they thought, 'lets go back a step and do a manual, there seems to be a small market. But only a short run because it might just be a group of noisy internet warriors who don't even buy our cars new - and if that is the case we don't want to be stuck with them. Ask the marketing guys to dress it up as 'limited' or whatever, get the press revved up as most of those guys are '3 pedal and a stick beards', and we'll see how it does'.
And it's done better than expected. Meaning that demand is seriously out-stripping supply. So allocating that finite supply came down to contacts, relationships and preferences - not ideal in any business, I've had to do it myself and it's not fun. The 'losers' are always pissed off - sometimes for ages and can harbour it against you for years. But it is what it is and they've had to handle it.
On top of that Porsche are selling cars hand over fist - if their manufacturing footprint is at capacity (I'm not sure, but I think they are doing very well) then of course the only way to grow financially is to max the £/unit - effectively now charging higher. And if demand is still there, you can charge even more. Nothing is ever too expensive if people are still queuing up to buy it, regardless of what the raging pitchfork mob in the village think.
So all this means to me is that someone somewhere in Porsche is now frantically working a product planning model to meet this demand of traditionalists who want these types of car - and to ensure that the £/unit looks positiveon the forecasts.
"Manual" - the new must-have option at £xx,xxxx.xx please, sir.
IMHO
Edited by Matt UK on Friday 23 September 11:55
Matt UK said:
Porsche are selling cars hand over fist - if their manufacturing footprint is at capacity (I'm not sure, but I think they are doing very well) then of course the only way to grow financially is to max the £/unit - effectively now charging higher. And if demand is still there, you can charge even more. Nothing is ever too expensive if people are still queuing up to buy it, regardless of what the raging pitchfork mob in the village think.
^^^ This.Even the Macan, one of the cheaper models Porsche currently sells, has a 18-month waiting list as the factory that builds them is at capacity. I know some-one who bought one of the first 60 in the UK and he's been told by his dealer they will buy back from him at almost exactly the price he paid for it effectively meaning he'll have had the car pretty much for free over 2 years. If that's the case with a Macan, I totally get why the 911R would be rarer than hens teeth...
That being said, I'd be amazed if Porsche didn't bring out something similar to the R at some point in the 991's model cycle - it can't have cost that much to make it, seeing as it's based on already existing models! I must admit, the sour grapes on here do make me smile too...
Matt UK said:
Indeed.
And also, let's just look at the whole 'limited' thing.. I very much doubt Porsche set out to create the situation it has found itself in.
They thought the market wanted faster, more tech, faster, more tech - so it went in that direction.
It always knew a group of traditionalist would resist, but hey, you got to build for the majority - they're a business.
But that group of traditionalist were bigger than they thought and started buying older 911's and paying top dollar for Singer type cars. Hmmm, this type demand is good for 'Brand' and 'emotional connection' soft measures, but it's not shifting metal off of their production lines.
So they thought, 'lets go back a step and do a manual, there seems to be a small market. But only a short run because it might just be a group of noisy internet warriors who don't even buy our cars new - and if that is the case we don't want to be stuck with them. Ask the marketing guys to dress it up as 'limited' or whatever, get the press revved up as most of those guys are '3 pedal and a stick beards', and we'll see how it does'.
And it's done better than expected. Meaning that demand is seriously out-stripping supply. So allocating that finite supply came down to contacts, relationships and preferences - not ideal in any business, I've had to do it myself and it's not fun. The 'losers' are always pissed off - sometimes for ages and can harbour it against you for years. But it is what it is and they've had to handle it.
What about the GTS and RS? They knew there would be high demand for them, they didn't, and don't intend to, meet it. Why not? Because the frenzy over the product increases demand for the lesser models. They very definitely set out to do exactly what they've done. Its the 'look at what we can do when we want to but you cant have one because we wont make you' one stance that grates. Nice position for Porsche to be in. Irritating though.And also, let's just look at the whole 'limited' thing.. I very much doubt Porsche set out to create the situation it has found itself in.
They thought the market wanted faster, more tech, faster, more tech - so it went in that direction.
It always knew a group of traditionalist would resist, but hey, you got to build for the majority - they're a business.
But that group of traditionalist were bigger than they thought and started buying older 911's and paying top dollar for Singer type cars. Hmmm, this type demand is good for 'Brand' and 'emotional connection' soft measures, but it's not shifting metal off of their production lines.
So they thought, 'lets go back a step and do a manual, there seems to be a small market. But only a short run because it might just be a group of noisy internet warriors who don't even buy our cars new - and if that is the case we don't want to be stuck with them. Ask the marketing guys to dress it up as 'limited' or whatever, get the press revved up as most of those guys are '3 pedal and a stick beards', and we'll see how it does'.
And it's done better than expected. Meaning that demand is seriously out-stripping supply. So allocating that finite supply came down to contacts, relationships and preferences - not ideal in any business, I've had to do it myself and it's not fun. The 'losers' are always pissed off - sometimes for ages and can harbour it against you for years. But it is what it is and they've had to handle it.
Its like Apple have the iPhone 7, release a few thousand then tell all their other customers they can only buy the 5 at a not dissimilar price for no apparent logical reason. Why, why would you do that! Just make more goddammit!
I'm not an Apple fan by the way.Edited by foxsasha on Friday 23 September 13:45
Here's a thought.... If the supply of 991R, GT3, RS, GT4 etc was as unrestricted as the regular car, would they sell many more? Would all these people complaining that they are being denied a car actually place an order if they were able to?
Instead, would the unrestricted numbers and 'normal' depreciation curves mean that they might even sell a few less of the halo cars than they currently do?
I bet quite a few of the people complaining that they can't get their hands on these halo cars, when faced with losing five figures a year in depreciation wouldn't actually buy the cars.
It's because they're limited and currently appreciate that people want them and not because they are better drivers cars. I'd argue that my C2 is the better car than either the GT3 or the R for anyone who actually wants to drive the car for thousands of miles a year.
Instead, would the unrestricted numbers and 'normal' depreciation curves mean that they might even sell a few less of the halo cars than they currently do?
I bet quite a few of the people complaining that they can't get their hands on these halo cars, when faced with losing five figures a year in depreciation wouldn't actually buy the cars.
It's because they're limited and currently appreciate that people want them and not because they are better drivers cars. I'd argue that my C2 is the better car than either the GT3 or the R for anyone who actually wants to drive the car for thousands of miles a year.
Kieran1985 said:
What's the point in reading about a new Lambo or Ferrari. Most of us will never afford one so it's irrelevant. What a fantastically dull website this would be if we could only review or do pieces on attainable cars. Maybe we like to read about these cars because we'll never get to experience them.
The point is that if I wanted an Aventador, I could go and buy one, because I'm lucky enough to have the means and the possible desire to do so.The 911 R and GT3 RS were sold to "preferred customers" way before they were announced. They are, literally, impossible to buy new. I "get" managing demand. I "get" limited edition models. I don't "get" cars that are so limited that they are sold out on the quiet before they ever come to market - and that most will go to collectors/speculators who aren't interested in the car, just the appreciation aspect.
Slippydiff said:
+1 The only thing remarkable about the 911R is just how unremarkable it is. Stuttgart could produce them by the truck load, instead they choose to p*ss off large amounts of their loyal customers, make just about every OPC in the UK look like they were involved in large amounts of skullduggery and in the process pandered to the flippers/collectors rather than the true enthusiasts that have supported them by buying their products repeatedly over the years. The same could be said of the Cayman GT4 supply situation. It's a very strange business model Porsche AG are working to currently.
As you so rightly said, just make bloody cars and sell them.
Agreed.As you so rightly said, just make bloody cars and sell them.
Anyway, I have influence with virtually no one, let alone my local (friendly?) Porsche dealer, and, having checked all pockets and seat backs, couldn't have afforded an R new, let alone at today's, inflated prices.
But I reckon I could just about afford some roof, frunk and bonnet stripes (not sure red or green yet) and some nice black 'porsche' door stripes for my old 996...
PhilboSE said:
The point is that if I wanted an Aventador, I could go and buy one, because I'm lucky enough to have the means and the possible desire to do so.
The 911 R and GT3 RS were sold to "preferred customers" way before they were announced. They are, literally, impossible to buy new. I "get" managing demand. I "get" limited edition models. I don't "get" cars that are so limited that they are sold out on the quiet before they ever come to market - and that most will go to collectors/speculators who aren't interested in the car, just the appreciation aspect.
So if you wanted a LaFerrari, you think you could just rock up to Ferrari, plonk down some money and expect to get one? Nah, your argument doesn't hold weight. Some cars will ALWAYS be out of reach for many - it's unfortunate if you're not on the "preferred customers" list but that's how it is. The LaFerrari is a car that is even more expensive, more exclusive and Ferrari did EXACTLY the same thing but do we hear the same level of protest about it? No. No, we do not.The 911 R and GT3 RS were sold to "preferred customers" way before they were announced. They are, literally, impossible to buy new. I "get" managing demand. I "get" limited edition models. I don't "get" cars that are so limited that they are sold out on the quiet before they ever come to market - and that most will go to collectors/speculators who aren't interested in the car, just the appreciation aspect.
This isn't to do with Porsche more than it is to do with disgruntled people not having the ability/means/contacts to get something they want. Furthermore, what people choose to do with their property is their business. If someone buys a 911R and deliberately decides to crash/set fire to it/drive it into the sea (instead of say, driving it or storing it), that's entirely up to them!
sidesauce said:
o if you wanted a LaFerrari, you think you could just rock up to Ferrari, plonk down some money and expect to get one? Nah, your argument doesn't hold weight. Some cars will ALWAYS be out of reach for many - it's unfortunate if you're not on the "preferred customers" list but that's how it is. The LaFerrari is a car that is even more expensive, more exclusive and Ferrari did EXACTLY the same thing but do we hear the same level of protest about it? No. No, we do not.
This isn't to do with Porsche more than it is to do with disgruntled people not having the ability/means/contacts to get something they want. Furthermore, what people choose to do with their property is their business. If someone buys a 911R and deliberately decides to crash/set fire to it/drive it into the sea (instead of say, driving it or storing it), that's entirely up to them!
I think there's a difference between a standalone halo model hypercar costing a million quid and something that is presented as another model variant in a standard range. I don't think the 911R is anything other than an artificial marketing construct. That's fine for the Porsche marketeers to do this but I'd prefer magazines and websites to challenge them on the position rather than editorially fellate them just because they get a day's drive in one.This isn't to do with Porsche more than it is to do with disgruntled people not having the ability/means/contacts to get something they want. Furthermore, what people choose to do with their property is their business. If someone buys a 911R and deliberately decides to crash/set fire to it/drive it into the sea (instead of say, driving it or storing it), that's entirely up to them!
PhilboSE said:
I think there's a difference between a standalone halo model hypercar costing a million quid and something that is presented as another model variant in a standard range. I don't think the 911R is anything other than an artificial marketing construct. That's fine for the Porsche marketeers to do this but I'd prefer magazines and websites to challenge them on the position rather than editorially fellate them just because they get a day's drive in one.
Agreed. Porsche already had the halo car; the 918.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff