RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars

[aeropilot]

turbobungle said:

If the manual 'box can't handle more than 450bhp, keep the car at 450bhp and lose 200kg of weight. Job done. Or make a stronger 'box. Thought this was the M Division?

Its not the 450hp that it can't handle, its the torque.

IIRC, BMW have already been running torque limits in the lower gears of their existing cars for a while to protect the manual boxes.

[Ares]

xjay1337 said:

RDMcG said:

This argument goes on and on everywhere but in the showrooms where interest in manuals continues to decline. As it is today few supercars manual. Major brands from Mercedes to Ferrari have abandoned the manual. Yes Porsche makes a few but this will only continue if there is sufficient demand.

There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.

In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?

I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.

The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5

This is a great post.

Totally agree.

I'm lucky enough to have driven a good number of supercars over the years. Recently, they have all been PDK/DSG/DualClutch/Semi-Auto by whatever name. They are better. Nothing reminded me more than jumping into a 355 last summer with a 'proper' open gate gearbox. Yes, the emotion of the snick/snick of the gate in changing gear was wonderful....for about 3 minutes, when it just seemed lethargic compared to modern boxes.

I'll go one further, as mentioned earlier, even the PDK/DSG/DualClutch/Semi-Auto will go on everything but the supercar soon - modern autos (with a good map) are as good as their semi competitors. Nowhere clearer than looking at the M3 Vs the C63/Alfa

[Ares]

p1stonhead said:

Is there any 'supercars' which offer a manual any more? The only one i can think of is the R8 which I think still has a manual option?

And its a dog.

[Patrick Bateman]

Whatever you prefer, the worst thing is the choice is being eroded. Obviously the buyers determine that but it's still a pity.

[Mike335i]

Ares said:

And its a dog.

Was it though? Was it not a glorious open gate shift and proclaimed by a certain Mr Harris as "one of the great shifts too, much sweeter than a Gallardo's."?
https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-spottedyky...
Even the Americans liked it according to wired "Driving the car smoothly still took skill—my first time in a manual R8, I botched every shift for a mile—but when you finally got it right, you felt like you’d won the world."
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/weird-shifter-made-a...

That article makes the point that shows that, strangely, it is an Audi that demonstrates why serious driving orientated cars should have a manual option.

[Patrick Bateman]

I only ever remember everyone waxing lyrical about the R8's manual shift.

[Ares]

Mike335i said:

Ares said:

And its a dog.

Was it though? Was it not a glorious open gate shift and proclaimed by a certain Mr Harris as "one of the great shifts too, much sweeter than a Gallardo's."?
https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-spottedyky...
Even the Americans liked it according to wired "Driving the car smoothly still took skill—my first time in a manual R8, I botched every shift for a mile—but when you finally got it right, you felt like you’d won the world."
https://www.wired.com/2015/04/weird-shifter-made-a...

That article makes the point that shows that, strangely, it is an Audi that demonstrates why serious driving orientated cars should have a manual option.

Back when DSG etc didn't work very well, perhaps it was good. But my only drive of an R8 manual, 18 months ago, was a revelation on how dreadful and slow it was. Looked good mind with the open gate, and maybe if the aim of an Audi supercar is to make driving difficult and needing to work hard to make progress, then they hit the nail on the head. Alas, the rest of the world has moved on from the 80's compromised supercar!

[Ares]

Patrick Bateman said:

I only ever remember everyone waxing lyrical about the R8's manual shift.

But when? World moves on. If everyone still waxed lyrical about it, they'd still offer it....!

[Mike335i]

Ares said:

But when? World moves on. If everyone still waxed lyrical about it, they'd still offer it....!

Sadly, liking something and buying it is another matter. If I could I would certainly have bought a manual supercar.

Convenience and bragging rights are what sells these days, not just in motoring but in most aspects. Besides, manual gearboxes make it harder to check your Facebook/Instagram/ whatever whilst driving, so no wonder they don't sell as well.

[Ares]

Mike335i said:

Ares said:

But when? World moves on. If everyone still waxed lyrical about it, they'd still offer it....!

Sadly, liking something and buying it is another matter. If I could I would certainly have bought a manual supercar.

Convenience and bragging rights are what sells these days, not just in motoring but in most aspects. Besides, manual gearboxes make it harder to check your Facebook/Instagram/ whatever whilst driving, so no wonder they don't sell as well.

Not sure I believe you. Majority of owners of supercars I know, drove a variety of models and variants of models. They picked the best one. Isn't it just possible that the armchair supercar fan thinks he would get the manual, then tries it against the DSC/PDK/etc and realises the manual is the worst option?

Or are you convinced that all supercar owners are social media checking braggers?

[Mike335i]

Not a supercar I know, but I spent a long time hunting for a manual boxed 335i and have no interest in the auto version.

I am impressed by automatics and DSG boxes as they are very good and changing gear. But I'm also impressed at how quickly my kettle boiles and my washing machine keeps my whites, wel white. None of them excite me. That's the problem for me, auto boxes take so much of the effort and interaction out of driving and I don't want that on a supercar. I don't want the best, I want the most fun.

On a 320d or Vauxhall Insignia then yeah, might as well have an auto.

Edited by Mike335i on Tuesday 16th May 17:53

[Ares]

Mike335i said:

Not a supercar I know, but I spent a long time hunting for a manual boxed 335i and have no interest in the auto version.

I am impressed by automatics and DSG boxes as they are very good and changing gear. But I'm also impressed at how quickly my kettle boiles and my washing machine keeps my whites, wel white. None of them excite me. That's the problem for me, auto boxes take so much of the effort and interaction out of driving and I don't want that on a supercar. I don't want the best, I want the most fun.

On a 320d or Vauxhall Insignia then yeah, might as well have an auto.

Edited by Mike335i on Tuesday 16th May 17:53

Now a Vauxhall would be better as a manual, as vauxhall autos are ste.

The 335i? I'm staggered you prefer the manual. It's like saying servo bakes, ABS, synchromesh gears etc etc take the fun out of driving. I got a 330i in 2007. I flocked straight to the manual, it was good. Then the dealer persuaded me to try the Auto. Far better and took nothing from the experience. 3 years later I looked at the 335i. The auto was better than the 330i (paddles and a better box), and manual had got worse.

...but we are talking modern performance cars, and supercars here. No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.

[plenty]

Ares said:

No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.

We're not that far from a time when a car can steer more effectively than a human. Presumably you'll be first in line to buy one of those?

[fido]

Left-foot braking - it's really hard to do this with a manual. I instinctively do this with an auto. So you do gain some driving pleasure with a DCT. Just saying.

[Patrick Bateman]

Saying a manual can't keep up with a DCT etc. is rather missing the point if you want a manual for its interaction.

Live and let live, just don't try to pretend that a couple of paddles don't take away from the driving experience for plenty of folk.

[Mike335i]

Ares said:

...but we are talking modern performance cars, and supercars here. No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.

This is exactly my point. Faster and more efficient is not the same as more fun. I don't really care that the auto is faster. A self driving car will certainly also be faster than me and a damn sight more efficient. I don't want that either.

And the whole brake servo / syncromesh / manual choke etc etc argument is missing the point and had been done before. These are passive improvements to systems and I still have control of the gears and the brakes. An auto gearbox is not passive, it takes over from me entirely.

I have driven autoboxes and I really get why people like them. They are easy and convenient. Modern ones are fast and efficient. You can let it do it's thing and much of the time it gets it right too. Great stuff when commuting in dense traffic, so good for the repmobile. If I had a 2 Gran Tourer, or a 7 series, I would have the autobox.

But I want to be the one in control of my so called 'ultimate driving machine', I want to drive it for fun. I'm not chasing lap times and I'm certainly not chasing 0-62 times on the road.

For the record, the manual box in the E90 is no where near as bad as made out. It isn't the best of course, but it is not bad at all. Short throw, solid engagement and a weighty clutch make it feel quite 'old school'.

We are clearly not going to agree on this, which is fine. I respect your opinion as just as valid as mine, but very different.

[Jex]

With DSG type boxes you can use them as a semi-automatic manual sequential gearbox when you feel like it, so that on the winding B-roads you can be in the correct gear going into the corner instead of the gearbox finding it later. One of the disadvantages is when in that mode the gearbox decides to change down because the revs are too low. This is a disadvantage when, for example, you are coming up to a 3rd gear bend in 6th. You slow down and then push the gear lever three times to select third, but just before you did do, it had changed to 5th, so you end up in 2nd. Doesn't happen with a manual box. I agree with those who say they don't want easier or necessarily quicker, but more control, more fun and a greater sense of accomplishment when it all works out.

[Ares]

plenty said:

Ares said:

No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.

We're not that far from a time when a car can steer more effectively than a human. Presumably you'll be first in line to buy one of those?

No. Because for me, facilitating a faster gearshift, via paddles, adds to the driving experience. Not steering would remove it.

[Ares]

Patrick Bateman said:

Saying a manual can't keep up with a DCT etc. is rather missing the point if you want a manual for its interaction.

Live and let live, just don't try to pretend that a couple of paddles don't take away from the driving experience for plenty of folk.

But obviously an insignificant number, otherwise there would be a demand for manuals?

[Ares]

Mike335i said:

Ares said:

...but we are talking modern performance cars, and supercars here. No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.

This is exactly my point. Faster and more efficient is not the same as more fun. I don't really care that the auto is faster. A self driving car will certainly also be faster than me and a damn sight more efficient. I don't want that either.

And the whole brake servo / syncromesh / manual choke etc etc argument is missing the point and had been done before. These are passive improvements to systems and I still have control of the gears and the brakes. An auto gearbox is not passive, it takes over from me entirely.

I have driven autoboxes and I really get why people like them. They are easy and convenient. Modern ones are fast and efficient. You can let it do it's thing and much of the time it gets it right too. Great stuff when commuting in dense traffic, so good for the repmobile. If I had a 2 Gran Tourer, or a 7 series, I would have the autobox.

But I want to be the one in control of my so called 'ultimate driving machine', I want to drive it for fun. I'm not chasing lap times and I'm certainly not chasing 0-62 times on the road.

For the record, the manual box in the E90 is no where near as bad as made out. It isn't the best of course, but it is not bad at all. Short throw, solid engagement and a weighty clutch make it feel quite 'old school'.

We are clearly not going to agree on this, which is fine. I respect your opinion as just as valid as mine, but very different.

But we're talking DSG/PDK etc....you still shift the gear, you just do it via a paddle. You still have control over the 'box, it doesn't take over from you entirely (but the beauty is that is can if you want it to).