Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
Interesting thread. Completely turns on what you consider character. I've got two cars - a 2005 Audi A3 3.2 V6, and a 2006 BMW 530i estate.
Great comparison between the two - the BMW has character because I feel a connection with it when I drive - it has ways of doing things that I enjoy working with (and around) - for example the autobox can be a bit jerky unless you modulate the throttle right, the throttle can be lazy and needs to be learnt, it has the odd fault here and there which I'm slowing fixing as I go. It's done 117k miles and I feel a significant connection with it accordingly - I love that it has had some faults which we've worked together to fix and that it has looked after me.
The Audi on the other hand is pure white goods. Whilst it has an interesting engine, it is hidden behind layers of insulation that means that characterful engine does not give rise to a characterful car. The steering is inert (the BMWs is positively Elise-like in comparison), the gearbox is competent and boring and the interior lacks anything in the way of interest.
I firmly believe that character comes from your connection with the car - and this is not always about how the car drives, but instead the life you have had with the car. A modern eco-box that you keep for 2 years before passing on is never going to be a car that you have shared experiences with - it won't break, it won't provide you with the odd thrill or spill, it'll just keep going until it gets replaced with the next one.
Great comparison between the two - the BMW has character because I feel a connection with it when I drive - it has ways of doing things that I enjoy working with (and around) - for example the autobox can be a bit jerky unless you modulate the throttle right, the throttle can be lazy and needs to be learnt, it has the odd fault here and there which I'm slowing fixing as I go. It's done 117k miles and I feel a significant connection with it accordingly - I love that it has had some faults which we've worked together to fix and that it has looked after me.
The Audi on the other hand is pure white goods. Whilst it has an interesting engine, it is hidden behind layers of insulation that means that characterful engine does not give rise to a characterful car. The steering is inert (the BMWs is positively Elise-like in comparison), the gearbox is competent and boring and the interior lacks anything in the way of interest.
I firmly believe that character comes from your connection with the car - and this is not always about how the car drives, but instead the life you have had with the car. A modern eco-box that you keep for 2 years before passing on is never going to be a car that you have shared experiences with - it won't break, it won't provide you with the odd thrill or spill, it'll just keep going until it gets replaced with the next one.
'Character' has nothing to do with the reliability of the car (unless you're a bearded English masochist who can't bond with his car unless he has to fix something 3 times a week and twice on Sundays - British Leyland was invented for people like that...).
'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
Moonpie21 said:
Every car has character... It might be terrible or bland in your opinion, but it's there and they are all slightly different.
I'm sure no-one can accuse a 56 plate Vectra Life as having any character. Or a Hyundai I30 Diesel. Some cars are better off without character because then it makes it easier to forget them. 
BBR NA Super 200 hits the spot for us, not perfect but fast 'enough' and fun at sensible speeds.
Still love the 275 Trophy and can't bring myself to sell it but the BBR has made me think about smaller ... lighter ... slower etc.
Both modern cars, both easy to live with, both totally different, both huge fun.
It's not all doom & gloom.
Can't wait to see how the new Alpine drives :-)
Still love the 275 Trophy and can't bring myself to sell it but the BBR has made me think about smaller ... lighter ... slower etc.
Both modern cars, both easy to live with, both totally different, both huge fun.
It's not all doom & gloom.
Can't wait to see how the new Alpine drives :-)
aaron_2000 said:
I'm sure no-one can accuse a 56 plate Vectra Life as having any character
If I recall the vectras of that age gave plenty of people back problems - certainly those that used the company cars where I used to work back in the day.There's a clever pun to do with character and chiropractor in there somewhere, but I can't be arsed...
Generally, yes.
How many cars are there on sale that you can't use every day? If we remove specialist track stuff....none?? And if you can use something everyday, where's the sense of occasion? Is a Porsche 918 any harder to drive every day than a Cayman? Is a Cayman any more of a chore to drive every day than a Golf? Ok, so a 918 is probably a little harder to park than a Polo, but surely not that much harder than (say) an E Class.. (and most of that difficulty is going to be in your head - "don't kerb it, don't kerb it, don't kerb it...f
k..."). And that's about the extent of it.
And that makes a car less special. They require no more from the driver, and the driver doesn't have to sacrifice anything to take it to work in morning traffic jams in January drizzle - just stick it in "D" and crawl along listening to Radio 3 on your 4 grand hifi, hoping someone spots you who doesn't give you the wker sign (isn't the UK wonderful).
Of course the BACs, the Radicals, and the Caterhams have all the compromise you could wish for, but I guess that's a different world. Cars like the 4C try, but let themselves down by being a bit crap...
There's definitely less character, but it's tricky to say why.. I think we're mostly buying mass market products now - everything looks designed in CAD (of course it is), everything looks bland and designed to regulation (again, because it is), engines are uninspiring, noises are artificial, and there isn't a hint of real craftsmanship in anything I can afford.
If TVR get it right, and keep the right amount of hand-crafted appeal, they could absolutely mop up... I live in hope.
How many cars are there on sale that you can't use every day? If we remove specialist track stuff....none?? And if you can use something everyday, where's the sense of occasion? Is a Porsche 918 any harder to drive every day than a Cayman? Is a Cayman any more of a chore to drive every day than a Golf? Ok, so a 918 is probably a little harder to park than a Polo, but surely not that much harder than (say) an E Class.. (and most of that difficulty is going to be in your head - "don't kerb it, don't kerb it, don't kerb it...f
k..."). And that's about the extent of it. And that makes a car less special. They require no more from the driver, and the driver doesn't have to sacrifice anything to take it to work in morning traffic jams in January drizzle - just stick it in "D" and crawl along listening to Radio 3 on your 4 grand hifi, hoping someone spots you who doesn't give you the w
ker sign (isn't the UK wonderful). Of course the BACs, the Radicals, and the Caterhams have all the compromise you could wish for, but I guess that's a different world. Cars like the 4C try, but let themselves down by being a bit crap...
There's definitely less character, but it's tricky to say why.. I think we're mostly buying mass market products now - everything looks designed in CAD (of course it is), everything looks bland and designed to regulation (again, because it is), engines are uninspiring, noises are artificial, and there isn't a hint of real craftsmanship in anything I can afford.
If TVR get it right, and keep the right amount of hand-crafted appeal, they could absolutely mop up... I live in hope.
Quite simply new sports cars are TOO WIDE for a blast down a country lane, that's why I miss my TVR, Lotus, etc its not all about how fast the car goes but where you can also enjoy it. I really fancied an F Type but god is it wide when travelling down a B road, now I have "matured" given up and got a Macan can you get any wider.
SHIFTY said:
Quite simply new sports cars are TOO WIDE for a blast down a country lane, that's why I miss my TVR, Lotus, etc its not all about how fast the car goes but where you can also enjoy it. I really fancied an F Type but god is it wide when travelling down a B road, now I have "matured" given up and got a Macan can you get any wider.
A friend of mine has a beautiful 930 Flatnose Turbo and once took me out for a spin it it around some tight, narrow country roads. It was such a perfect little thing. I can't imagine doing the same thing on the same roads in a modern Turbo.I echo much of what is said above.
Funny this crops up today, as I was thinking the same thing, Modern 'sports cars' don't seem to be as involving to drive as those from yesteryear. A sports car should be one that has a unique concept/blueprint. Modern sports cars appear from my limited driving of them (recently a few laps in a GTR, R8, Gallardo, F430, 4C, QV) devoid of that 'full' connectivity; all the human senses together with the car's physical feedback, your own adjustments needed to tame the physics acting against it/you to travel at speed (not solely in a straight line). I think the F430 and Gallardo can be left out as I felt more connected and that I had to work the car but the GTR and R8 although fast both felt rather sterile after the initial delight of huge bhp and mega speed.
It is not all about top speed, bhp, 0-60 times, the gizmos the gadgets, driver aids, modes for this and for that..... it is about enjoyment of feeling the car do things and not quite do others as you drive it; it is about thrilling the senses and that can be done in a relatively low powered, low weight car such as a MX5, Elise or VX220 etc.
I am in the market for a newer sports car (have a few at the moment GTV V6, Coupe 20vt, VX220, Boxster and an MGF(!) test driven a 4C and it has the looks but I felt that I was unable to modulate the power delivery (it wasn't linear) and the handling was not as good or precise as my Vauxhall. It made the right noises but with the auto box felt a tad un-involving to drive.
Funny this crops up today, as I was thinking the same thing, Modern 'sports cars' don't seem to be as involving to drive as those from yesteryear. A sports car should be one that has a unique concept/blueprint. Modern sports cars appear from my limited driving of them (recently a few laps in a GTR, R8, Gallardo, F430, 4C, QV) devoid of that 'full' connectivity; all the human senses together with the car's physical feedback, your own adjustments needed to tame the physics acting against it/you to travel at speed (not solely in a straight line). I think the F430 and Gallardo can be left out as I felt more connected and that I had to work the car but the GTR and R8 although fast both felt rather sterile after the initial delight of huge bhp and mega speed.
It is not all about top speed, bhp, 0-60 times, the gizmos the gadgets, driver aids, modes for this and for that..... it is about enjoyment of feeling the car do things and not quite do others as you drive it; it is about thrilling the senses and that can be done in a relatively low powered, low weight car such as a MX5, Elise or VX220 etc.
I am in the market for a newer sports car (have a few at the moment GTV V6, Coupe 20vt, VX220, Boxster and an MGF(!) test driven a 4C and it has the looks but I felt that I was unable to modulate the power delivery (it wasn't linear) and the handling was not as good or precise as my Vauxhall. It made the right noises but with the auto box felt a tad un-involving to drive.
Edited by Flanners on Tuesday 23 May 16:21
PunterCam said:
If TVR get it right, and keep the right amount of hand-crafted appeal, they could absolutely mop up... I live in hope.
My concern for TVR is if they can keep the car light, driver focused and raw enough to keep it a TVR, but still comply with all the H&S stuff. I imagine they will be able to if stuff like Westfields can still be driven as everyday cars, we'll see. TVR could be the company to bring the spark back to cars again.havoc said:
'Character' has nothing to do with the reliability of the car (unless you're a bearded English masochist who can't bond with his car unless he has to fix something 3 times a week and twice on Sundays - British Leyland was invented for people like that...).
'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
Bang on!'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
I have an Evora and one of the reasons I chose it is that it has more character than other cars I could have bought. But, character doesn't mean lack of reliability, in this this case the character comes from sense of occasion, steering feel, exhaust note plus a little bit of "go" when you need it.
My wife's Skoda Octavia scout has zero character, but her previous Outback did, my A6 was good but too clinical. My sons 120,000 mile 17 year old Skoda fabia has toured Europe full of students on a budget, it has oodles of character, but a suspect that a good valet would fix that
My wife's Skoda Octavia scout has zero character, but her previous Outback did, my A6 was good but too clinical. My sons 120,000 mile 17 year old Skoda fabia has toured Europe full of students on a budget, it has oodles of character, but a suspect that a good valet would fix that
greghm said:
V8RX7 said:
Just bought an IS200 with an LS400 engine stuffed in - that isn't dull, nor quiet...
Nor economical
Now that sounds interesting. Do you have more information ? Nor economical
260 - 320bhp, very reliable & strong (many bolt a supercharger or turbo on) and easily / cheaply available (around £350-750)
Dave Barrett makes an adaptor so the 1UZ bolts up to the IS200 gearbox and surprisingly the gearbox and diff seem to take the increase in power / torque fine - it is a little low geared but I didn't buy it for cruising.
Mine's the VVTi and is running the standard LS400 ECU which takes a few tricks to make the ECU think the Auto box is still there.
If anything it's far more civilised than I expected for a 300bhp, 1350kg car.
The South Africans stick them in everything as a cheap replacement engine - even Merc Sprinters !
Just buy a late e46 M3, manual or SMG - who cares. Last true car that could be the dd, not cost a fortune to run, feel blisteringly quick when you were giving it some and yet still be exciting sitting still in a traffic jam....it has that tingling magic that is borne from a perfect balance of civility and potency.
Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
PHAB said:
Just buy a late e46 M3, manual or SMG - who cares. Last true car that could be the dd, not cost a fortune to run, feel blisteringly quick when you were giving it some and yet still be exciting sitting still in a traffic jam....it has that tingling magic that is borne from a perfect balance of civility and potency.
Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
You're wrong - they are significantly more expensive to run than a 330 - which has enough power 99% of the time, the only reason I'd buy an M3 is to get the LSD and to lose the throttle delay.Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
You only get to access the engine's abilities at the top end - at the top end of 3rd you're doing 100 !
It's precisely why I bought my V8 - I get to enjoy it's low end torque all the time.
j_s14a said:
s m said:
Skyline R32 - too easy to drive fast, average Joe can be as fast as a Porsche test driver etc
Certainly, with the GTR. But there were lesser R32's, such as the GTS, GTS-t, and GTS-4 which all had character, but weren't as fast. But as with most Japanese cars ofthe era, they character only really appears with modifications. A set of carbs or throttle bodies and a tubular exhaust manifold and straight through system on an R32 GTS will produce a noise which will put exotica to shame. For the lesser models I wouldn't say modifications are a must, my GTS-T is as stock as they come (modern amp) and has bags of character, however that is my viewpoint and all the replies would point to it being subjective.
V8RX7 said:
PHAB said:
Just buy a late e46 M3, manual or SMG - who cares. Last true car that could be the dd, not cost a fortune to run, feel blisteringly quick when you were giving it some and yet still be exciting sitting still in a traffic jam....it has that tingling magic that is borne from a perfect balance of civility and potency.
Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
You're wrong - they are significantly more expensive to run than a 330 - which has enough power 99% of the time, the only reason I'd buy an M3 is to get the LSD and to lose the throttle delay.Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
You only get to access the engine's abilities at the top end - at the top end of 3rd you're doing 100 !
It's precisely why I bought my V8 - I get to enjoy it's low end torque all the time.
And last a line na hydraulic steering means residually a no brainer too.
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