Public Transport vs Driving. Are they mad?
Discussion
Didn't really like this video. Thought it a bit too negative but it makes a point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
egor110 said:
Wait Here Until Green Light Shows said:
MitchT said:
How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?
Amazing pension schemes, unions, fantastic pay, 2 or 3 people doing one man's job etc etc.Rick101 said:
Didn't really like this video. Thought it a bit too negative but it makes a point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
Mein Gott! Couldn't believe how xenophobic it was -- I suspect it will get a lot of likes from UKIPpers. Surely there's a way of making the same point without resorting to this?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
the train is great to sit back eat drink listen to music take a leak go to the buffet look out the window let somebody else worry about the driving and not fanny about trying to find a big enough parking space on arrival to avoid having your car knocked or scratch if youre not venturing far from the station anyway.........i wont get into the cost argument as other posters have hit the nail on the head with the pros for public transport.
I use the train if I need occasionally to go to London on business, because driving there is for the clinically insane.
I use it to get to the airport if I'm holidaying from Gatwick. First Class is not much more expensive if you book well in advance, and it's a relaxing start to the holiday.
I use it now and again for days out in places like Bath, because, well, they often involve lots of pubs and I don't want to have to drive later.
It's easy to get a rosy impression of train travel using it like that. I used to commute by train, years ago, when I worked in Manchester. It was utterly miserable, but the cost of parking was prohibitive. Absolute distress purchase.
I use it to get to the airport if I'm holidaying from Gatwick. First Class is not much more expensive if you book well in advance, and it's a relaxing start to the holiday.
I use it now and again for days out in places like Bath, because, well, they often involve lots of pubs and I don't want to have to drive later.
It's easy to get a rosy impression of train travel using it like that. I used to commute by train, years ago, when I worked in Manchester. It was utterly miserable, but the cost of parking was prohibitive. Absolute distress purchase.
I've caught a bus twice, train once, in the 20 years that I've lived in Cornwall. Bus works out much more expensive than driving. £5 from my house to both of the 2 closest towns, 5 and 9 miles away. The bus takes the long route, through all the local villages, so it takes 4 times longer than driving. It only runs once an hour, too.
The train was much better value, £5 from Liskeard to Penzance, about 50 miles by road. Still slower than driving though.
The train was much better value, £5 from Liskeard to Penzance, about 50 miles by road. Still slower than driving though.
Wait Here Until Green Light Shows said:
MitchT said:
How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?
Amazing pension schemes, unions, fantastic pay, 2 or 3 people doing one man's job etc etc.
Not quite. Most of the transport industry is unionised but that counts for bugger all most of the time now days. The companies will do, to a large degree whatever they want, no amount of unionisation will increase investment or modernise rolling stock/vehicles.
A lot of our trains are run by companies from Europe. Arriva, Abellio, Go-Ahead all big players and all owned or part owned by German, French and Dutch companies. Cream the money off over hear and look after their own I suspect.
Saying all that, I've often used the train for appointments in London, traveling off peak has been decent value and reasonably reliable. I have mates who use the service to commute and can tell a different story though.
carl_w said:
Often cheaper to book two singles via thetrainline.com up to the day before travel. On the day of travel you're stuffed -- I ended up paying £108 Leeds to Kings X cattle class 1-way after missing my pre-booked train.
I can fly Stansted-Glasgow for £50, but I guess I wouldn't expect to rock up at the airport with 20 mins to spare and buy a ticket for £50.
I've walked to the station, got a price of £xx for a trip then stood there and bought a ticket online for 1/3 less then collected it a few minutes later from the machine. No doubt it doesnt always work but it has for me in the past. I can fly Stansted-Glasgow for £50, but I guess I wouldn't expect to rock up at the airport with 20 mins to spare and buy a ticket for £50.
wack said:
A friend of mine had to go to a conference in London from Warrington, his boss said catch the 6am train so he rocks up at the station says return to London , because he didn't know when it was finishing he couldn't book a return train so had to buy an anytime ticket
£318
Anytime return allows return any day within a month, he could have likely got two singles for less than half that. For casual users though this is half the battle, getting the cheapest ticket. £318
I had to go to Stoke on Trent, originally I was getting prices of £100+ one way, after a bit of playing about and splitting the trip, I paid about £55 I think, same trains, same times, just splitting the trip. Bonkers.
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
I see this side of the argument but it's not that simple. Owning a car is normally as well as, not instead of, using public transport. This means we still pay a large chunk of the overall cost of owning a car even when using the train or bus.If everyone lived and worked in a city it would be great but massive numbers of people don't. That means when we do try to use public transport it seems very expensive. If it was cheap then maybe we'd start using it more when it's a practical option. Might not cut down on car ownership but it would cut down on the number of cars on the road.
It has always been known that individual train journeys are more expensive than individual car journeys.
However you have to see that it's much cheaper than getting a car in the first place (and licence, insurance, tax, etc) so for people who have no interest in cars or travel very little (walk to work) and generally have no need to own a car, it starts to look very appealing
However you have to see that it's much cheaper than getting a car in the first place (and licence, insurance, tax, etc) so for people who have no interest in cars or travel very little (walk to work) and generally have no need to own a car, it starts to look very appealing
CaptainMorgan said:
wack said:
A friend of mine had to go to a conference in London from Warrington, his boss said catch the 6am train so he rocks up at the station says return to London , because he didn't know when it was finishing he couldn't book a return train so had to buy an anytime ticket
£318
Anytime return allows return any day within a month, he could have likely got two singles for less than half that. For casual users though this is half the battle, getting the cheapest ticket. £318
I had to go to Stoke on Trent, originally I was getting prices of £100+ one way, after a bit of playing about and splitting the trip, I paid about £55 I think, same trains, same times, just splitting the trip. Bonkers.
Under £200 with 5 minutes searching but as you say, stand in front of a clerk and ask for a return and that's what you get , to say he was gobsmacked was an understatement , especially as it was going on his credit card and he couldn't ring his boss at 6am to make sure he was getting his money back
We had cause to Go to York a few weeks ago from the Isle of Wight. Had dinner at the railway museum as it happens anyway I said to Missus Zippy let's train it from Southampton - yeah right £270 return for both if us that's on top of £22 each to get from Cowes to Southampton. So one less car and all that crap fuc it - £52 return to bring her Golf TDi over on the 0625 Yarmouth lymington car ferry and then we rocked up at the Principal HOtel next to the train station at 11.20 IIRC average speed 64mph and 57.5 mpg. Train is a waste of time and HS2 wtf us that all about ? Unless it's cheaper than the car then is a load if tosh.
techguyone said:
Why didn't he get a single, then do the same on the return journey?
Probably assumed (as I would, to be honest) that simply ordering a return ticket is cheaper.I can't remember the last time I used a train, but it was several years ago. I'd have to spend time getting my head around these different ticket options to feel confident I was getting the best price
Booked on trainline.com, about 2 weeks in advance. How cheap is that! MitchT said:
How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?
AFAIK trains there are regarded as a "public good" and so get massive amounts of public moneyspent on them.
The UK could have a similar train system, if taxes went up quite a bit.
As the UK stands now, the public subsidy is tapering down, with the rail
user paying a larger and larger proportion of the costs.
One can of course argue about whether public subsidy - for what is essentially
a 200 year old transport solution - is an efficient use of money.
GCSE Geography tells us that a journey from A to B by rail, that involves
going from A by some non-rail method to C (nearest train station to A) then to D by
train (nearest train station to B) then onwards by a non-rail method to final
destination B can't be as efficient as just jumping in the car and going from A to B.
Modulo car running costs, car parking and the inevitable speeding ticket ;->
poing said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
I see this side of the argument but it's not that simple. Owning a car is normally as well as, not instead of, using public transport. This means we still pay a large chunk of the overall cost of owning a car even when using the train or bus.If everyone lived and worked in a city it would be great but massive numbers of people don't. That means when we do try to use public transport it seems very expensive. If it was cheap then maybe we'd start using it more when it's a practical option. Might not cut down on car ownership but it would cut down on the number of cars on the road.
I just don't see that one can reasonably expect the cost of a journey on public transport to be less than the marginal cost of using a car you already own. So if they want a modal shift to public transport, they will have to either heavily subsidise it or heavily penalise the use of cars. One thing that would make sense is wherever possible to shift costs away from owning cars and towards using them, but for many people the primary cost is depreciation which is only in the smaller part mileage driven.
I think it's also necessary for policy makers to realise that running a usable public transport system doesn't make environmental or economic sense below a certain population density. Running empty buses round the countryside doesn't do anyone any good.
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