Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

[pherlopolus]

SimonYorkshire said:

How much range can you pick up from a 30 min charge from your 6.6kw charger? If you can drive 4 miles on 1kwh (this would be without the heater on, nice eh..) 26.4 miles.

Travel for 2 hours in a car might expect to cover 100 miles, why would I want to only stick in only 26.4 miles range having just used 100 miles range? I mean... Suppose I set off with a realistic 150 miles range, after 100 miles of use that's down to 50 miles range. Leave a forecourt having added only 26.4 miles range now I'd have only 76.4 miles range and could only drive for another hour and a half before breaking down battery flat at the side of the road with no chance of the AA bringing a jerry can. Perhaps the current company you work for should recommend you stop for a 2 hour break after driving for 2 hours and not to use the heater or aircon.

Edit - incidentally our posts crossed... I wasn't intentionally disregarding your last post (which I think is fair and well balanced) when I replied to your earlier post mate.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 12:03

i'd be using a rapid charger, the ones scattered handily around the country.

Stop chopping logic with me, and switch your brain on instead.

[PixelpeepS3]

SimonYorkshire said:

No, Pixelpeep.

You really are grasping at straws in your list above!

Are you assuming this is refuelling at rush hour? How would you fancy your chances of refuelling an EV on a forecourt at rush hour... If there is a que for ice cars which can refuel in a few minutes even if we were to accept your list, how long would you have to wait to charge in a que of EVs?
Any time besides rush hour there probably is no que, not for a pump, not waiting to pay. Certainly not waiting to pay if you pay at the pump.
Remove seat belt takes time eh? Pulling wallet out of pocket takes time? You're having a laugh unless you're unlucky enough to regularly experience some annoying person who you expect to set off almost immediately after getting back into their car but instead they start opening pop and crisps, start applying makeup and embark on a map reading debate with someone in the passenger seat. I am most other people set off from the forecourt about 10 seconds after getting back in the car and since getting back in the car and setting off involves basically the opposite of getting out of the car including locking and seatbelts this shows how long it takes to do so.
We all remove satnavs from windscreens?
If you pay at a the pump how long is a the walk back to the car?
I find it takes about 3 seconds to remove seatbelt, remove key from ignition and lock the car (using keyfob which mysteriously happens to be in my hand after removing key from ignition lol) and wallet happens to be in my pocket so keys go in one pocket as wallet comes out the other regardless of if I have to walk to a kiosk or walk to the other side of the car to the pay by card machine. That's if I even lock the car, probably not if I'm paying on the forecourt card machine and stood beside the car all the time.

You say you're happy with your EV, good for you then, nobody is saying all EVers are in denial and would really prefer an ice or hybrid if they were honest with themselves. I would say you're not totally realistic in your list though. Plus most of the time your list implies would apply equally or more so to EVs... Locking, walking around the car, seatbelt, satnav(??), filling/charging (oh dear), queing (oh dear), messing with some phone app (?? oh dear). Don't forget checking tyres, polishing screen and lights, topping up screenwash. You could have included checking engine oil level which EVers don't have to do - that's a massive point against ices and hybrids eh. Mind you I could probably do a full service on an ice in the time you could expect to sit on a forecourt charging an EV just once.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 11:17

thanks for confirming.

When i typed that reply i considered leaving out the filling up process, thinking 'he'll only focus on dispelling that and not address his inaccuracies with his electricity costs and average speed to get 4.7m/kWh'

So, for the sake of getting to the point... i will 'agree' it takes 5 minutes to fill an ICE.an average person doing average mileage in an EV will save that 5 minutes as they have the car filled overnight ready for when they leave each day.

Now, why are you telling me i pay 14.5p per kWh and that i am basing my figures on doing 'nearer to 10mph than 70mph'

I am basing my figures, ON MY FIGURES....

9p per kWh
average of 4.7miles per KWh over 1100 miles of mixed driving, none of it in an EV friendly manner. - 70-80mph on motorway

0.09p/4.7 = 0.0191 (1.9ppm)

1.9p / £60 = 3000

= 3000 miles for £60.

its costing me. i didn't read it somewhere, i didn't see it on tv or read it in the paper - these are my costs. today.

[98elise]

pherlopolus said:

SimonYorkshire said:

How much range can you pick up from a 30 min charge from your 6.6kw charger? If you can drive 4 miles on 1kwh (this would be without the heater on, nice eh..) 26.4 miles.

Travel for 2 hours in a car might expect to cover 100 miles, why would I want to only stick in only 26.4 miles range having just used 100 miles range? I mean... Suppose I set off with a realistic 150 miles range, after 100 miles of use that's down to 50 miles range. Leave a forecourt having added only 26.4 miles range now I'd have only 76.4 miles range and could only drive for another hour and a half before breaking down battery flat at the side of the road with no chance of the AA bringing a jerry can. Perhaps the current company you work for should recommend you stop for a 2 hour break after driving for 2 hours and not to use the heater or aircon.

Edit - incidentally our posts crossed... I wasn't intentionally disregarding your last post (which I think is fair and well balanced) when I replied to your earlier post mate.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 12:03

i'd be using a rapid charger, the ones scattered handily around the country.

Stop chopping logic with me, and switch your brain on instead.

Simon's arguments are based on the Chewbacca defence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

"The concept of disguising a flaw in one's argument by presenting large amounts of irrelevant information"

[Krikkit]

SimonYorkshire said:

andrewrob said:

How long does it take to fill up with LPG? For me, quite a while.

Good point! Slightly longer than filling with petrol.... ... ... And this is enough to be a point of concern for some people considering converting to LPG even though they have worked out for themselves that they would save £thousands in just a couple of years running on LPG.

Yes, it's a sticking point on LPG.

For example, at the moment I do 70 miles/day on the commute, and once every 3(ish) weeks a 200 mile trip to visit family.

On an ordinary week with an LPG car that had a sensible tank (we're not talking about a FFRR with 250L stashed away) I'd have to spend 2x fills (about 20-30 minutes total) at the petrol station to get to work and back, then another 2x fills for the weekend journey.

With an EV I'd plug it in every night (even pessimistically, a 30s delay, call it 10 minutes a week), then on the longer journey I'd top up at a services (which I'd usually stop for a coffee/stretch the legs at for 20 minutes anyway) to grab an extra few miles of range.

Even setting aside the ppm, the time factor spent standing around in a petrol station all year round puts me off, that's before we think about the inconvenience of finding an LPG point, dealing with other morons in the petrol station, the extra cash spent on the irresistable crap in the petrol station etc... Where an EV has minimal inconvenience and is already an improvement on the current system because I don't have to go anywhere near a petrol station...

[andrewrob]

Krikkit said:

SimonYorkshire said:

andrewrob said:

How long does it take to fill up with LPG? For me, quite a while.

Good point! Slightly longer than filling with petrol.... ... ... And this is enough to be a point of concern for some people considering converting to LPG even though they have worked out for themselves that they would save £thousands in just a couple of years running on LPG.

Yes, it's a sticking point on LPG.

For example, at the moment I do 70 miles/day on the commute, and once every 3(ish) weeks a 200 mile trip to visit family.

On an ordinary week with an LPG car that had a sensible tank (we're not talking about a FFRR with 250L stashed away) I'd have to spend 2x fills (about 20-30 minutes total) at the petrol station to get to work and back, then another 2x fills for the weekend journey.

With an EV I'd plug it in every night (even pessimistically, a 30s delay, call it 10 minutes a week), then on the longer journey I'd top up at a services (which I'd usually stop for a coffee/stretch the legs at for 20 minutes anyway) to grab an extra few miles of range.

Even setting aside the ppm, the time factor spent standing around in a petrol station all year round puts me off, that's before we think about the inconvenience of finding an LPG point, dealing with other morons in the petrol station, the extra cash spent on the irresistable crap in the petrol station etc... Where an EV has minimal inconvenience and is already an improvement on the current system because I don't have to go anywhere near a petrol station...

The problem I have is that my local LPG filling station is also an LPG garage, great bloke that runs it and I've used him for years but when I pop down at lunch time it's not difficult to spend 30 minutes there to fill. Arrive and someone is already filling with one queuing, chap finishes filling but because there's not enough room to put his car somewhere else it sits there until he's gone in and paid (which isn't always straight away because one of the mechanics will be on the phone or under a car etc etc. Can't get petrol there either so if I need to top that up that's a separate visit to a normal filling station.

I'd got an EV as a second car but its quickly become our main car just through convenience, running cost, and reliability.
I used to be a SimonYorkshire until reading people's experiences with EVs here and took the plunge.
Also to add to your point about plugging every night, I do this and it only takes 5 seconds. Would definitely have another EV after this one.

[rscott]

Save yourself those 5 seconds with https://youtu.be/uMM0lRfX6YI

[SimonYorkshire]

What, so now pro EVers are again defending slow EV charge times on forecourts which they'll have to use if they actually do so some driving instead of just pottering down the shops by saying they charge at home again? And again totally discounting that if home charging/refuelling really was such a draw they might have considered having an LPG vehicle and facility to refuel with LPG at home years ago?

Agreed refuelling at home there is little chance of being distracted or engaged in conversation by others when refuelling, agreed this also leaves little scope for 'impulse buys' from a forecourt... But really such big points? How likely is some EVers recharging at some supermarket, coffee shop or again forecourt to succumb to chat, distractions and impulse buys? Clutching at straws again.

PixelpeepS3 said:

thanks for confirming.

When i typed that reply i considered leaving out the filling up process, thinking 'he'll only focus on dispelling that and not address his inaccuracies with his electricity costs and average speed to get 4.7m/kWh'

So, for the sake of getting to the point... i will 'agree' it takes 5 minutes to fill an ICE.an average person doing average mileage in an EV will save that 5 minutes as they have the car filled overnight ready for when they leave each day.

Now, why are you telling me i pay 14.5p per kWh and that i am basing my figures on doing 'nearer to 10mph than 70mph'

I am basing my figures, ON MY FIGURES....

9p per kWh
average of 4.7miles per KWh over 1100 miles of mixed driving, none of it in an EV friendly manner. - 70-80mph on motorway

0.09p/4.7 = 0.0191 (1.9ppm)

1.9p / £60 = 3000

= 3000 miles for £60.

its costing me. i didn't read it somewhere, i didn't see it on tv or read it in the paper - these are my costs. today.

Yeh right Pixelpeep lol.. You didn't make a bodge of your list and vastly overestimate refuelling time of an ice, you weren't concerned about being pulled up by others besides myself on aspects such as how long it takes to remove ignition keys, press a button on a keyfob to lock the doors, speed of fill with ice fuel (which I reckon is about 4 seconds for a gallon), you made a hash of your list simply in the hope that I'd address some part of what you wrote in a certain way which then in some strange way you still haven't described would then highlight faults in my thinking lol?

Sorry but I don't believe your figures - Laws of physics say that if your EV can do 4.7miles per kwh at 80mph it should be able to do at least 8 miles per kwh at 20mph. Proposal you might want to consider - don't ever drive at 80mph, don't use motorway where minimum speed is 40mph. Instead take a different route to the same destination which allows you to drive at just 20mph and double your range... Prove other EVers and EV manufacturer range figures wrong by vastly beating all of their claims. But don't use the heater or you might end up managing less range than you would at a faster speed.

Why the inverted commas where you said 'agree'. You know it takes less than 5 mins to refuel an ice. Especially if you were only to stick in 3 litres that would be the equivalent of a 30 minute charge using Pherlopolous' EV charger.

98elise said:

Simon's arguments are based on the Chewbacca defence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense

"The concept of disguising a flaw in one's argument by presenting large amounts of irrelevant information"

Is this your get out for not answering any points I made? What that I said is irrelevant? I'm sure there's a psychiatry term for what you've just done (cop out of answering others points while attempting to pour scorn on the other at the same time) but this isn't a psychology forum or thread and I'm not a psychiatrist. Is there a Skywalker defence? Would've thought I'm more like Skywalker, you're more like Chewbacca... I make points, you just seem to demonstrate irritation when things aren't going your way.

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

Save yourself those 5 seconds with https://youtu.be/uMM0lRfX6YI

But but.. the process in that video took 36 seconds. And even Pixelpeep would tell you the vid only started when the car was already in the garage... So after the driver had undone his seatbelt, locked the car, unlocked the garage, opened the garage door, unlocked the car, got back in it, put his seatbelt back on, driven into the garage, seat belt off, back out the car, lock the car again, only then would that process start. Then it''s close the garage door, lock the garage, great now you're done. A process that other Evers and even ice users manage in 5 seconds provided they're not slowed by standing watching such a very slow robotic arm inching the filler toward the car. Would be a shame that the driver has to walk around the front of the car to get out of the garage if the process starts as soon as he drives the car in. Mind you by the time Pixelpeep has removed his seatbelt, checked his hair and removed the satnav that 36 seconds would be over.

Just messing! ;-)

Is that what your lass wants for Xmas then Rscott? Lol.

[PixelpeepS3]

SimonYorkshire said:

Mind you by the time Pixelpeep has removed his seatbelt, checked his hair and removed the satnav that 36 seconds would be over.

Seriously, you've seen me in the S3 haven't you?!

[PixelpeepS3]

SimonYorkshire said:

Sorry but I don't believe your figures - Laws of physics say that if your EV can do 4.7miles per kwh at 80mph it should be able to do at least 8 miles per kwh at 20mph.

PixelpeepS3 said:

average of 4.7miles per KWh over 1100 miles of mixed driving, none of it in an EV friendly manner. - 70-80mph on motorway

and i still pay 9p per kWh, regardless of the fact you've ignored it three times now.

[andrewrob]

SimonYorkshire said:

What, so now pro EVers are again defending slow EV charge times on forecourts which they'll have to use if they actually do so some driving instead of just pottering down the shops by saying they charge at home again? And again totally discounting that if home charging/refuelling really was such a draw they might have considered having an LPG vehicle and facility to refuel with LPG at home years ago?

Facility to fill LPG at home? Not quite as neat and easy to install as a charger stuck on a wall.
Even with the slimline canisters set up in a locker I'd lose a chunk of driveway space. What kind of price could I be buying LPG at then?

[andrewrob]

PixelpeepS3 said:

SimonYorkshire said:

Sorry but I don't believe your figures - Laws of physics say that if your EV can do 4.7miles per kwh at 80mph it should be able to do at least 8 miles per kwh at 20mph.

PixelpeepS3 said:

average of 4.7miles per KWh over 1100 miles of mixed driving, none of it in an EV friendly manner. - 70-80mph on motorway

and i still pay 9p per kWh, regardless of the fact you've ignored it three times now.

I'm only paying 6.3p per kw for mine.
Obviously for calculations when using electricity prices you go for a nice high number but with LPG prices you go for the lowest in the country. Makes perfect sense

[austinsmirk]

So, what's the solution for powering our vehicles when the dinosaur juice starts to run out then ?

Not sure why we can't agree that different fuel types and vehicles suit different people. As does TV for example.

you could turn off and delete ITV for me with no impact on my life. But for some reason it exists as some people like it. This is a good thing as its nice we're all different.

I really don't know why we're consistently worrying about charging times though: we all have cars sat for hours if not days on our drives doing nothing, therefore plenty of time to charge up.

Life's only as difficult as you want to make it for yourself.

[SimonYorkshire]

andrewrob said:

SimonYorkshire said:

What, so now pro EVers are again defending slow EV charge times on forecourts which they'll have to use if they actually do so some driving instead of just pottering down the shops by saying they charge at home again? And again totally discounting that if home charging/refuelling really was such a draw they might have considered having an LPG vehicle and facility to refuel with LPG at home years ago?

Facility to fill LPG at home? Not quite as neat and easy to install as a charger stuck on a wall.
Even with the slimline canisters set up in a locker I'd lose a chunk of driveway space. What kind of price could I be buying LPG at then?

Agreed not as neat, unless of course the LPG tank was buried under your garden. But if home refuelling was such a draw, wouldn't we expect a lot more of those that do run LPG vehicles to have chosen to have an LPG tank at home? And some of those that don't run EV vehicles (run petrol / diesel) to switch to LPG just for that facility? We just don't get that but it would be perfectly feasible for many who run LPG vehicles to have this... people don't go for this even though refuelling from a bulk LPG tank at home can be far cheaper than buying it on a forecourt.

It is also possible (for those with a piped gas supply which is most) to refuel at home with CNG. This wouldn't involve a CNG bulk storage tank at home, it would involve a small compressor pumping gas directly from the house piped supply into the vehicle's CNG tank. This refuelling would take all night to refill a vehicle's CNG with about 300 mile range and when the driver was out and about in the car he wouldn't find anywhere else to refuel with CNG (but could still run on petrol) and the compressor might cost more than an LPG bulk tank, but again nobody goes for this... Even though domestic CNG costs only about 4p per kwh. If an EV is charged with electric at 10p per kwh and is 100% efficient and CNG costs 4p per hour but is 40% efficient the costs per mile for running the EV and running the CNG powered car are the same and don't forget that like LPG CNG car has the advantage over EVs of being able to run on petrol in case of running out of the cheap stuff.

Doesn't anyone else think that if the future holds decent range and couple of minute charging for EVs when out and about in the car fewer EVers will think ability to trickle charge an EV at home, involving having to plug in on a regular basis, more hassle than calling at a forecourt? You don't think some of those who previously used garage as a store room and just parked on the drive or road outside the house will revert back to doing that?

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 15:50

[Efbe]

SimonYorkshire said:

Agreed not as neat, unless of course the LPG tank was buried under your garden. But if home refuelling was such a draw, wouldn't we expect a lot more of those that do run LPG vehicles to have chosen to have an LPG tank at home? And some of those that don't run EV vehicles (run petrol / diesel) to switch to LPG just for that facility? We just don't get that but it would be perfectly feasible for many who run LPG vehicles to have this... even though this could easily cheaper LPG than they could buy on a forecourt.

It is also possible (for those with a piped gas supply which is most) to refuel at home with CNG. This wouldn't involve a CNG bulk storage tank at home, it would involve a small compressor pumping gas directly from the house piped supply into the vehicle's LPG tank. This refuelling would take all night to refill a vehicle's CNG with about 300 mile range and when the driver was out and about in the car he wouldn't find anywhere else to refuel with CNG (but could still run on petrol) and the compressor might cost more than an LPG bulk tank, but again nobody goes for this... Even though domestic CNG costs only about 4p per kwh. If an EV is charged with electric at 10p per kwh and is 100% efficient and CNG costs 4p per hour but is 40% efficient the costs per mile for running the EV and running the CNG powered car are the same and don't forget that like LPG CNG car has the advantage over EVs of being able to run on petrol in case of running out of the cheap stuff.

Doesn't anyone else think that if the future holds decent range and couple of minute charging for EVs when out and about in the car fewer EVers will think ability to trickle charge an EV at home, involving having to plug in on a regular basis, more hassle than calling at a forecourt? You don't think some of those who previously used garage as a store room and just parked on the drive or road outside the house will revert back to doing that?

Simon
What are your goals on this thread?

Are you trying to:

1) put people off EVs
2) predict a dismal failure of EVs
3) Sell LPG
4) Other

[SimonYorkshire]

austinsmirk said:

So, what's the solution for powering our vehicles when the dinosaur juice starts to run out then ?

Not sure why we can't agree that different fuel types and vehicles suit different people. As does TV for example.

you could turn off and delete ITV for me with no impact on my life. But for some reason it exists as some people like it. This is a good thing as its nice we're all different.

I really don't know why we're consistently worrying about charging times though: we all have cars sat for hours if not days on our drives doing nothing, therefore plenty of time to charge up.

Life's only as difficult as you want to make it for yourself.

We can agree that different things suit different people. If my missus drove an EV could easily meet her needs.

We all have cars parked outside doing nothing most of the time but if we want to use them for an extended trip we don't want to have to have to wait a long time during the trip to get enough range to continue the trip.

If dinosaur juice, fossil fuel, runs out... What are the EVs going to run on considering most electricity comes from burning CNG? I am always scorned for bringing up fusion power but we should all hope it is invented. If it is invented, we could clean up emissions sooner by switching home heating to electricity rather than switching vehicles from ice to electricity.

[pherlopolus]

Most electricity doesn't come from cng.

[andrewrob]

SimonYorkshire said:

andrewrob said:

SimonYorkshire said:

What, so now pro EVers are again defending slow EV charge times on forecourts which they'll have to use if they actually do so some driving instead of just pottering down the shops by saying they charge at home again? And again totally discounting that if home charging/refuelling really was such a draw they might have considered having an LPG vehicle and facility to refuel with LPG at home years ago?

Facility to fill LPG at home? Not quite as neat and easy to install as a charger stuck on a wall.
Even with the slimline canisters set up in a locker I'd lose a chunk of driveway space. What kind of price could I be buying LPG at then?

Agreed not as neat, unless of course the LPG tank was buried under your garden. But if home refuelling was such a draw, wouldn't we expect a lot more of those that do run LPG vehicles to have chosen to have an LPG tank at home? And some of those that don't run EV vehicles (run petrol / diesel) to switch to LPG just for that facility? We just don't get that but it would be perfectly feasible for many who run LPG vehicles to have this... people don't go for this even though refuelling from a bulk LPG tank at home can be far cheaper than buying it on a forecourt.

It is also possible (for those with a piped gas supply which is most) to refuel at home with CNG. This wouldn't involve a CNG bulk storage tank at home, it would involve a small compressor pumping gas directly from the house piped supply into the vehicle's CNG tank. This refuelling would take all night to refill a vehicle's CNG with about 300 mile range and when the driver was out and about in the car he wouldn't find anywhere else to refuel with CNG (but could still run on petrol) and the compressor might cost more than an LPG bulk tank, but again nobody goes for this... Even though domestic CNG costs only about 4p per kwh. If an EV is charged with electric at 10p per kwh and is 100% efficient and CNG costs 4p per hour but is 40% efficient the costs per mile for running the EV and running the CNG powered car are the same and don't forget that like LPG CNG car has the advantage over EVs of being able to run on petrol in case of running out of the cheap stuff.

Doesn't anyone else think that if the future holds decent range and couple of minute charging for EVs when out and about in the car fewer EVers will think ability to trickle charge an EV at home, involving having to plug in on a regular basis, more hassle than calling at a forecourt? You don't think some of those who previously used garage as a store room and just parked on the drive or road outside the house will revert back to doing that?

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 15:50

The reason there's not so much of a draw of people installing lpg tanks at home is exactly as you've just said they take up sapce or you end up digging your garden over (and still have to make sure its in a location accessible by a tanker to be filled)
Compared to electrician turning up and fitting a little disc the diameter of a football on the wall that sticks out by a couple of inches.

Plugging in at home is no hassle at all. It literally takes 5 seconds and its done, plus you get the added bonus of being able to defrost and heat, or cool the car down without being anywhere near it. How much time does that save?

Not sure why you're talking about CNG, I wouldn't want a tank under that much pressure in my car and as you've said there's not really anywhere you can refuel it apart from your own house. ETA Just noticed that a typical home CNG filling system only adds just over half a gallon per hour. Assuming what you're filling is capable of 35mpg this means that a 6.6kw charger is faster, and the charger doesn't weigh 150kg and isn't filling a tank of gas outside your window at 200bar. Sounds great. I can see why you brought it up.


The question I asked is how much could I realistically buy LPG in at to fuel my car at home? Do you have a tank at your garage? How much do you pay?

Also don't forget to use this handy chart next time when quoting fueling at home rates (I assume the 4p per hour figure you came up with for CNG included this?)

Edited by andrewrob on Wednesday 22 November 16:29

[SimonYorkshire]

PixelpeepS3 said:

SimonYorkshire said:

Sorry but I don't believe your figures - Laws of physics say that if your EV can do 4.7miles per kwh at 80mph it should be able to do at least 8 miles per kwh at 20mph.

PixelpeepS3 said:

average of 4.7miles per KWh over 1100 miles of mixed driving, none of it in an EV friendly manner. - 70-80mph on motorway

and i still pay 9p per kWh, regardless of the fact you've ignored it three times now.

OK, if I missed 9p per kwh 3 times sorry, that's a decent price for electric.
So what is the kwh per mile figure at 80mph? How does this affect range (from what range at 20mph to what range at 80mph)? How does this affect how long you have to charge per mile you drive?

andrewrob said:

I'm only paying 6.3p per kw for mine.
Obviously for calculations when using electricity prices you go for a nice high number but with LPG prices you go for the lowest in the country. Makes perfect sense

An even better price, how do you manage to get it for that price? I didn't go for the lowest prices in the country for LPG, I went for a low forecourt price. Cheapest price will be someone filling at home.

Efbe said:

Simon
What are your goals on this thread?

Are you trying to:

1) put people off EVs
2) predict a dismal failure of EVs
3) Sell LPG
4) Other

4. My posts are completely within context of the title of the thread 'Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing'. If this were a thread titled 'Do EVers like the Tesla or the Leaf best' I would't be participating. I'm certainly not here for your point 3, when I mention LPG it is usually with some aspect of comparing what I know general public's thoughts and concerns are when it comes to using other than petrol or diesel.

What are your goals on this thread? Do you 1 want to turn people onto EVs? 2 Do you predict a massive success story for EVs? Why would you concern yourself with what others think or talking about it?

pherlopolus said:

Most electricity doesn't come from cng.

More electricity in the UK comes from the burning of CNG than any other source. Have another look at the gridwatch website http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ any time of day any time of year you like and tell me when this isn't true. I'll tell you when it might not be true, early hours of the morning at times least demand when nuclear but also coal power stations continue to chug out a similar amount of electricity but the cleaner CCGT plants which can be taken on/offline far easier than coal plants are taken off line. Also notice how at the moment the grid is just under the yellow band area of concern (rather than black no probs or red big concern band) on it's gauge and let us know where you think the needle on that gauge would be pointing if a few more percent vehicle users switched to EVs...

andrewrob said:

The reason there's not so much of a draw of people installing lpg tanks at home is exactly as you've just said they take up sapce or you end up digging your garden over (and still have to make sure its in a location accessible by a tanker to be filled)
Compared to electrician turning up and fitting a little disc the diameter of a football on the wall that sticks out by a couple of inches.

Plugging in at home is no hassle at all. It literally takes 5 seconds and its done, plus you get the added bonus of being able to defrost and heat, or cool the car down without being anywhere near it. How much time does that save?

Not sure why you're talking about CNG, I wouldn't want a tank under that much pressure in my car and as you've said there's not really anywhere you can refuel it apart from your own house. ETA Just noticed that a typical home CNG filling system only adds just over half a gallon per hour. Assuming what you're filling is capable of 35mpg this means that a 6.6kw charger is faster, and the charger doesn't weigh 150kg and isn't filling a tank of gas outside your window at 200bar. Sounds great. I can see why you brought it up.


The question I asked is how much could I realistically buy LPG in at to fuel my car at home? Do you have a tank at your garage? How much do you pay?

Also don't forget to use this handy chart next time when quoting fueling at home rates (I assume the 4p per hour figure you came up with for CNG included this?)

Edited by andrewrob on Wednesday 22 November 16:29

If ability to defrost an ice car before you got out of bed were such a positive anyone with an ice car could easily leave a little heater in the car all the time and plug it into a timed socket when they got home. Some ice cars actually do have facility to defrost on a timer built in without even plugging the car in. But why would any car you park in a garage have a frosted windscreen? Once you've unplugged an EV from it's socket how do you think it's heater compares to that in an ice car? The ex owner of a Leaf answered this many pages ago 'coldest car he ever owned'.

Don't fancy a CNG tank because it's potentially dangerous? Well I wouldn't fancy a 200 bar tank in my car either (LPG is only about 10 bar) but there have been no incidents concerning CNG tanks. No concerns about nuke plants or nuke waste or lithium fires?

The table shows that at the moment all road fuels attract road fuel duty except electricity... You see the exception for electricity continuing if EV numbers rise to a high enough proportion of vehicles on the road when government revenues are hit as a consequence do you? Half of the small number or people who refuel with LPG at home don't declare all of the LPG they use to power their car with so might get LPG at 30odd pence per litre. Illegal and not something I'd advise but why would anyone think this is less fair than an EVer not paying road duty for say CNG burned in a power station that ultimately ended up pushing an EV down the road? At the moment no EVer declares how much electricity they use to recharge EV batteries so the question of how much coal or CNG was burned to produce that electricity doesn't arise. If/when electricity attracts road fuel duty you'll have a car that costs about as much to run as a fuel efficient ice costs to run but in comparison to the ice/hybrid/range extended EV the EV may still have all the drawbacks of range and charge time compared to ices that they have today.

Government is currently giving some concessions to those that buy and use EVs... bit like how they steered people away from petrol cars and into diesel cars a few years ago. Then when enough people had switched to diesel it's price went up. Diesel price going up once enough people had switched to it was always on the cards eh..

Incidentally, CNG gives 13.8kwh per kg, so even for anyone who declared using it to run their vehicle from domestic piped gas the road duty on it would only increase it's price by (26.2p / 13.8) = 1.9p per kwh, so from 4p per kwh to 5.9p per kwh. It would literally cost a few more pence on a long trip to travel in an ice powered by CNG from mains gas than for the same trip in an EV eh. And the CNG powered car could be most petrol cars, and the tank might be outside the car on some models rather than inside, and the CNG car could run on petrol if it ran out of CNG.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 18:10

[andrewrob]

andrewrob said:

I'm only paying 6.3p per kw for mine.
Obviously for calculations when using electricity prices you go for a nice high number but with LPG prices you go for the lowest in the country. Makes perfect sense

An even better price, how do you manage to get it for that price? I didn't go for the lowest prices in the country for LPG, I went for a low forecourt price. Cheapest price will be someone filling at home.

andrewrob said:

Quite easily, that's my new price as of today, my price for last year was 6p.
You've got to admit though 49.9p is a very low forecourt price.
Cheapest price will be someone at home NOT DECLARING IT TO THE TAX MAN. Key difference there

andrewrob said:

The reason there's not so much of a draw of people installing lpg tanks at home is exactly as you've just said they take up sapce or you end up digging your garden over (and still have to make sure its in a location accessible by a tanker to be filled)
Compared to electrician turning up and fitting a little disc the diameter of a football on the wall that sticks out by a couple of inches.

Plugging in at home is no hassle at all. It literally takes 5 seconds and its done, plus you get the added bonus of being able to defrost and heat, or cool the car down without being anywhere near it. How much time does that save?

Not sure why you're talking about CNG, I wouldn't want a tank under that much pressure in my car and as you've said there's not really anywhere you can refuel it apart from your own house. ETA Just noticed that a typical home CNG filling system only adds just over half a gallon per hour. Assuming what you're filling is capable of 35mpg this means that a 6.6kw charger is faster, and the charger doesn't weigh 150kg and isn't filling a tank of gas outside your window at 200bar. Sounds great. I can see why you brought it up.


The question I asked is how much could I realistically buy LPG in at to fuel my car at home? Do you have a tank at your garage? How much do you pay?

Also don't forget to use this handy chart next time when quoting fueling at home rates (I assume the 4p per hour figure you came up with for CNG included this?)

Edited by andrewrob on Wednesday 22 November 16:29

If ability to defrost an ice car before you got out of bed were such a positive anyone with an ice car could easily leave a little heater in the car all the time and plug it into a timed socket when they got home. Some ice cars actually do have facility to defrost on a timer built in without even plugging the car in. But why would any car you park in a garage have a frosted windscreen? Once you've unplugged an EV from it's socket how do you think it's heater compares to that in an ice car? The ex owner of a Leaf answered this many pages ago 'coldest car he ever owned'.

andrewrob said:

Its not Such as positive but just an added bonus, as is being able to top itself up overnight and not at a forecourt. It doesn't need to be plugged in for the remote heating either and uses a fraction of battery power if its not. I don't park my car in a garage, many people don't park their cars in a garages.
The ex owner of a leaf many pages ago was someone a poster knew that never used to turn the heating on in their leaf, some people are a bit dim it seems.
The heater in mine is far better than my ice car, I can get peak heat in 10 seconds from freezing cold, I'd be looking at a good mile in my ice.

Don't fancy a CNG tank because it's potentially dangerous? Well I wouldn't fancy a 200 bar tank in my car either (LPG is only about 10 bar) but there have been no incidents concerning CNG tanks. No concerns about nuke plants or nuke waste or lithium fires?

andrewrob said:

Yes there has been a an incident with CNG, this year in fact with a modern car and unfortunately a fatality and serious injury (apologies for the wail link it was the first one on google)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4397398/Ca...
This was actually talked about quite a few pages back and was blamed on LPG I quickly corrected the poster as I don't like misinformation being spread (did you a favor there defending your business)

The table shows that at the moment all road fuels attract road fuel duty except electricity... You see the exception for electricity continuing if EV numbers rise to a high enough proportion of vehicles on the road when government revenues are hit as a consequence do you? Half of the small number or people who refuel with LPG at home don't declare all of the LPG they use to power their car with so might get LPG at 30odd pence per litre. Illegal and not something I'd advise but why would anyone think this is less fair than an EVer not paying road duty for say CNG burned in a power station that ultimately ended up pushing an EV down the road? At the moment no EVer declares how much electricity they use to recharge EV batteries so the question of how much coal or CNG was burned to produce that electricity doesn't arise. If/when electricity attracts road fuel duty you'll have a car that costs about as much to run as a fuel efficient ice costs to run but in comparison to the ice/hybrid/range extended EV the EV may still have all the drawbacks of range and charge time compared to ices that they have today.

Government is currently giving some concessions to those that buy and use EVs... bit like how they steered people away from petrol cars and into diesel cars a few years ago. Then when enough people had switched to diesel it's price went up. Diesel price going up once enough people had switched to it was always on the cards eh..

Incidentally, CNG gives 13.8kwh per kg, so even for anyone who declared using it to run their vehicle from domestic piped gas the road duty on it would only increase it's price by (26.2p / 13.8) = 1.9p per kwh, so from 4p per kwh to 5.9p per kwh. It would literally cost a few more pence on a long trip to travel in an ice powered by CNG from mains gas than for the same trip in an EV eh. And the CNG powered car could be most petrol cars, and the tank might be outside the car on some models rather than inside, and the CNG car could run on petrol if it ran out of CNG.

[b]So why did you base your figures before on CNG without declaring it to the tax man? Bit misleading no? If I hadn't pulled you up on that most would have read that as gospel with you being an expert in the gas industry and all.
What's fair or not is not really the issue here, is it fair that LPG doesn't attract as much tax as petrol? I didn't hear you complaining about that one.


I don't think paying 1.9p a mile is going to last forever no, I do think they'll be some form of road pricing in the future but then also electric cars will be cheaper to buy by then if they're being bought by the majority and higher polluting cars would be taxed heavier to encourage that.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 18:10

Apologies for ballsing the formatting up I've not done an multiquote before