Reducing Congestion - how would you do it?
Discussion
Clearly never been to Cambridge then. Cyclists cause road chaos.
Ok, put all those folk on bikes into a car and see whether the situation improves, yes cyclists get in the way of car drivers sometimes but they take up far less road and parking spaces.
You cant get cyclists of the road to make it marginally easier for car drivers, those people still need to get to work or wherever else they are going, in London they generally wont be recreational cyclists, just those that dont want the grind of public transport or that know that a car is not a viable option in a densely populated city.
Imagine if everyone was on bikes and just you were in a car, I suspect there would be a lot less queuing for you. You can get six people on bikes in the space an average car takes, probably more as you dont need a lot of space around them, hence why places like India and Vietnam move a lot more people, they dont all feel the need or have the means for a premium SUV, they have a bike or a moped, smaller and more maneuverable, this is the crux of the issue.
In town and city centres, it is cars that are the problem but the whole debate seems to be, how can I make my journey, in my car more pleasant and quicker, never the thought you may be part of the problem and people using other modes of transport part of the answer.
I love cars and driving, they are great for moving people and stuff over long distances but utter crap in busy places, I see all the X5's, Ranger Rovers and
the like round here driving half a mile, there is the option, if able, to not use it, it is acceptable, I just walk or cycle, much less agro most of the time.
J4CKO said:
Carlton Banks said:
Spent the last 10 years living in London and congestion has increased greatly.
Without doing real analysis I believe it is down to a few things such as:
1. Traffic light phasing - too many major lights have either phasing for too long or too short
2. Introduction of Bus and cycle lanes - the space for other vehicles has greatly reduced
3. Constant road maintenance across for repairs or install of utilities causing diversions
4. Cyclists - sorry!
5. Cost of rail / tube
6. Empty buses constantly running
Cyclists, really, ?Without doing real analysis I believe it is down to a few things such as:
1. Traffic light phasing - too many major lights have either phasing for too long or too short
2. Introduction of Bus and cycle lanes - the space for other vehicles has greatly reduced
3. Constant road maintenance across for repairs or install of utilities causing diversions
4. Cyclists - sorry!
5. Cost of rail / tube
6. Empty buses constantly running
Ok, put all those folk on bikes into a car and see whether the situation improves, yes cyclists get in the way of car drivers sometimes but they take up far less road and parking spaces.
You cant get cyclists of the road to make it marginally easier for car drivers, those people still need to get to work or wherever else they are going, in London they generally wont be recreational cyclists, just those that dont want the grind of public transport or that know that a car is not a viable option in a densely populated city.
Imagine if everyone was on bikes and just you were in a car, I suspect there would be a lot less queuing for you. You can get six people on bikes in the space an average car takes, probably more as you dont need a lot of space around them, hence why places like India and Vietnam move a lot more people, they dont all feel the need or have the means for a premium SUV, they have a bike or a moped, smaller and more maneuverable, this is the crux of the issue.
In town and city centres, it is cars that are the problem but the whole debate seems to be, how can I make my journey, in my car more pleasant and quicker, never the thought you may be part of the problem and people using other modes of transport part of the answer.
I love cars and driving, they are great for moving people and stuff over long distances but utter crap in busy places, I see all the X5's, Ranger Rovers and
the like round here driving half a mile, there is the option, if able, to not use it, it is acceptable, I just walk or cycle, much less agro most of the time.
Zetec-S said:
I know it would be very controversial, but raise the minimum age for driving. I'd say at least 21, but you'd probably have to phase it in (so raise to 18 in 2 years, 19 in 4 years, etc) The aim would be to change the mindset of a whole generation so they no longer look at the car as their default mode of transportation.
Obviously this would need to be backed up with significant investment in public transport, but if people had no choice then they'd get used to it and so by the time they are old enough to drive, they are already used to commuting/shopping/visiting people without going by car, so might well decide to continue.
Obviously this will never happen as (a) it would be political suicide for any government, (b) public transport wouldn't cope, (c) it would probably be unworkable with too many youngsters 'stranded', especially in the early days of implementation, and (d) plenty of other reasons I expect PHers to point out
I think younger generations are turning away from driving anyway, I'm struggling to find up to date info on UK licences issued per year, but the PDF below (p22) has a 25% drop for licences issued to 17-20 year olds between 2007/08 and 2013/14. Total licences issued per year also looks to be slightly declining. Maybe expensive insurance is putting people off?Obviously this would need to be backed up with significant investment in public transport, but if people had no choice then they'd get used to it and so by the time they are old enough to drive, they are already used to commuting/shopping/visiting people without going by car, so might well decide to continue.
Obviously this will never happen as (a) it would be political suicide for any government, (b) public transport wouldn't cope, (c) it would probably be unworkable with too many youngsters 'stranded', especially in the early days of implementation, and (d) plenty of other reasons I expect PHers to point out
https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/wp-content/uploads...
super7 said:
Reduce the population!!!
Were an Island, the more people in the countrry, the less space to live in, and the less road space for private transport and public transport. If you try and transfer the cars drivers to public transport, you need to improve it. Trains are full at peak times even at the stupid prices season tickets are at now. Buses could be used more but people don't like sharing space.
The only real answer, across the whole world is to limit the population. Everytime Mother earth comes up with a population culling disease, we manage to beat it. Average age is increasing, birth rates are increasing, the amount of space and resource is getting smaller. The 'Third world' is getting richer and producing more babies.
We all try (well most of us) to maximise our time on the earth. We all try (well most of us) to create our own prodigy, some of us like to make loads of them.... some of us try to make as many as possible and get the rest of us to pay for them!
We are all getting richer, relative to previous generations, and cars are getting more affordable. Equality and human rights says that we are all allowed to use as much resource as we like.... It's a vicious circle which will only be resolved by a Super Volcano, a meteorite or an incurable plague.
I'm not as pessimistic as you. As per almost all developed nations we have a birth-rate below replacement, so absent your catastrophe we're naturally responding by trying to reduce population anyway. Only problem is that we don't have an economic model that works well with a declining population. How Japan copes over the next decade or so will be an interesting case study.Were an Island, the more people in the countrry, the less space to live in, and the less road space for private transport and public transport. If you try and transfer the cars drivers to public transport, you need to improve it. Trains are full at peak times even at the stupid prices season tickets are at now. Buses could be used more but people don't like sharing space.
The only real answer, across the whole world is to limit the population. Everytime Mother earth comes up with a population culling disease, we manage to beat it. Average age is increasing, birth rates are increasing, the amount of space and resource is getting smaller. The 'Third world' is getting richer and producing more babies.
We all try (well most of us) to maximise our time on the earth. We all try (well most of us) to create our own prodigy, some of us like to make loads of them.... some of us try to make as many as possible and get the rest of us to pay for them!
We are all getting richer, relative to previous generations, and cars are getting more affordable. Equality and human rights says that we are all allowed to use as much resource as we like.... It's a vicious circle which will only be resolved by a Super Volcano, a meteorite or an incurable plague.
Also, birth-rate globally has slowed dramatically and is continuing to slow, once increasing age flat-lines & therefore death-rates catch up we're looking like a population peak later this century, then small declines. Chart below of global total fertility rate per women over the last 55 years.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.I...
Public transport will only ever work if the distances are short enough and the stops numerous enough with sufficient people at each stop to make it viable. i.e. in busy towns.
I used to live in the sticks and we had one bus every Wednesday.
I also used to work with someone whos commute by public transport was 3 hrs each way. He now commutes to a different country by aircraft each day and this is both quicker and cheaper for him.
Surely the most efficient way to resolve this is increase the motorbike use dramatically. Goes from where you are to where you want to go (unlike a lot of public transport), even if your commute is 40 miles (unlike bicycles), requires no change to any road infrastructure (unlike moving bus stops, re-laying services currently under roads, etc), parking is easier to provide/find (car parks with fewer cars will provide way more bike spaces) and each 'item' of traffic is smaller.
As a nice upside pollution will decrease and viable organs for donation might also see a rise!
Win, win!
I used to live in the sticks and we had one bus every Wednesday.
I also used to work with someone whos commute by public transport was 3 hrs each way. He now commutes to a different country by aircraft each day and this is both quicker and cheaper for him.
Surely the most efficient way to resolve this is increase the motorbike use dramatically. Goes from where you are to where you want to go (unlike a lot of public transport), even if your commute is 40 miles (unlike bicycles), requires no change to any road infrastructure (unlike moving bus stops, re-laying services currently under roads, etc), parking is easier to provide/find (car parks with fewer cars will provide way more bike spaces) and each 'item' of traffic is smaller.
As a nice upside pollution will decrease and viable organs for donation might also see a rise!
Win, win!
RacerMDR said:
wisbech said:
RacerMDR said:
fake plates immediately
No, because a dealer can't sell you a car without you having the permit. (nor can you import one without it) You can buy a second hand car with (say) 4 years of permit left. There are oddities - i.e. cheaper permit (and distinctive number plates) for weekend only driving, or for "collectors" a permit that only allows 28 days of driving a year. (and again, distinctive number plates) With the number of CCTV, you would be brave to risk trying to cheat,
Remove about 75% of traffic lights! The majority of my non motorway journeys are spent pointlessly sitting in a queue at lights waiting to go. Most of them are not remotely necessary and could be replaced with give way signs.
On a few of my local routes, there are a couple of bottlenecks in particular which always have huge tailbacks anywhere near rush hour. Occasionally there'll be no traffic there at all, and when I arrive where the lights are I'll see that they've broken, and everyone has resorted to giving way, as it should be.
On a few of my local routes, there are a couple of bottlenecks in particular which always have huge tailbacks anywhere near rush hour. Occasionally there'll be no traffic there at all, and when I arrive where the lights are I'll see that they've broken, and everyone has resorted to giving way, as it should be.
In addition to the general obvious and eminently sensible 'manage population size' thing, I'd add:
Stop allowing and promoting runaway housing inflation/bubbles. Stop paying unemployable people to live in massively expensive areas close to employment centres. Having thousands/ hundreds of thousands of people commuting long distances daily past huge swathes of unemployed people on benefits to get to work because even reasonably well paid work doesn't pay enough to outbid housing benefit and actually live nearby is insane.
Yeah yeah, I know - [lefties] "social cleansing!!!"
Stop allowing and promoting runaway housing inflation/bubbles. Stop paying unemployable people to live in massively expensive areas close to employment centres. Having thousands/ hundreds of thousands of people commuting long distances daily past huge swathes of unemployed people on benefits to get to work because even reasonably well paid work doesn't pay enough to outbid housing benefit and actually live nearby is insane.
Yeah yeah, I know - [lefties] "social cleansing!!!"
Edited by Nealio on Saturday 21st October 11:15
Edited by Nealio on Saturday 21st October 11:15
1) Reduce the number of traffic lights
2) Remove speed humps
3) Stop shutting cut throughs off
4) Up the average speed camera/speed limits out of major cities up from 50mph to 70mph
5) Stop the reduction of carriageway space in towns/cities for cars/HGV's etc & where possible increase it
6) Make all the developers that are building all these apartments contribute towards the infrastructure of the town they're building in, I don't just mean the roads I mean schools/shops/surgeries etc if some of those are added locally (in an area where you're looking to add another 200-500 people) then people will not have to use their cars as much.
All the above will not only aid congestion but air quality too.
2) Remove speed humps
3) Stop shutting cut throughs off
4) Up the average speed camera/speed limits out of major cities up from 50mph to 70mph
5) Stop the reduction of carriageway space in towns/cities for cars/HGV's etc & where possible increase it
6) Make all the developers that are building all these apartments contribute towards the infrastructure of the town they're building in, I don't just mean the roads I mean schools/shops/surgeries etc if some of those are added locally (in an area where you're looking to add another 200-500 people) then people will not have to use their cars as much.
All the above will not only aid congestion but air quality too.
chrisxr2 said:
Clearly never been to Cambridge then. Cyclists cause road chaos.
Ok, put all those folk on bikes into a car and see whether the situation improves, yes cyclists get in the way of car drivers sometimes but they take up far less road and parking spaces.
You cant get cyclists of the road to make it marginally easier for car drivers, those people still need to get to work or wherever else they are going, in London they generally wont be recreational cyclists, just those that dont want the grind of public transport or that know that a car is not a viable option in a densely populated city.
Imagine if everyone was on bikes and just you were in a car, I suspect there would be a lot less queuing for you. You can get six people on bikes in the space an average car takes, probably more as you dont need a lot of space around them, hence why places like India and Vietnam move a lot more people, they dont all feel the need or have the means for a premium SUV, they have a bike or a moped, smaller and more maneuverable, this is the crux of the issue.
In town and city centres, it is cars that are the problem but the whole debate seems to be, how can I make my journey, in my car more pleasant and quicker, never the thought you may be part of the problem and people using other modes of transport part of the answer.
I love cars and driving, they are great for moving people and stuff over long distances but utter crap in busy places, I see all the X5's, Ranger Rovers and
the like round here driving half a mile, there is the option, if able, to not use it, it is acceptable, I just walk or cycle, much less agro most of the time.
No, people cause chaos, people trying to get where they want to go, what you mean is a large number of cyclists causes you some minor inconvenience, and if they ride badly then that doesnt help, like when the same person driving a car doesnt make a very good job of it.J4CKO said:
Carlton Banks said:
Spent the last 10 years living in London and congestion has increased greatly.
Without doing real analysis I believe it is down to a few things such as:
1. Traffic light phasing - too many major lights have either phasing for too long or too short
2. Introduction of Bus and cycle lanes - the space for other vehicles has greatly reduced
3. Constant road maintenance across for repairs or install of utilities causing diversions
4. Cyclists - sorry!
5. Cost of rail / tube
6. Empty buses constantly running
Cyclists, really, ?Without doing real analysis I believe it is down to a few things such as:
1. Traffic light phasing - too many major lights have either phasing for too long or too short
2. Introduction of Bus and cycle lanes - the space for other vehicles has greatly reduced
3. Constant road maintenance across for repairs or install of utilities causing diversions
4. Cyclists - sorry!
5. Cost of rail / tube
6. Empty buses constantly running
Ok, put all those folk on bikes into a car and see whether the situation improves, yes cyclists get in the way of car drivers sometimes but they take up far less road and parking spaces.
You cant get cyclists of the road to make it marginally easier for car drivers, those people still need to get to work or wherever else they are going, in London they generally wont be recreational cyclists, just those that dont want the grind of public transport or that know that a car is not a viable option in a densely populated city.
Imagine if everyone was on bikes and just you were in a car, I suspect there would be a lot less queuing for you. You can get six people on bikes in the space an average car takes, probably more as you dont need a lot of space around them, hence why places like India and Vietnam move a lot more people, they dont all feel the need or have the means for a premium SUV, they have a bike or a moped, smaller and more maneuverable, this is the crux of the issue.
In town and city centres, it is cars that are the problem but the whole debate seems to be, how can I make my journey, in my car more pleasant and quicker, never the thought you may be part of the problem and people using other modes of transport part of the answer.
I love cars and driving, they are great for moving people and stuff over long distances but utter crap in busy places, I see all the X5's, Ranger Rovers and
the like round here driving half a mile, there is the option, if able, to not use it, it is acceptable, I just walk or cycle, much less agro most of the time.
If you got all cyclists of the road, the joy would be short lived as those people still need to get about, they would probably drive if able, or take public transport.
Is it just me or is there seems to be some perception that if you have a car you are somehow more important, especially if you have an expensive one and that cyclists, pedestrians and people on public transport are somehow a lower form of life than those with cars, that their journeys are less important, it is coming across in some of the posts, get cyclists of the roads etc ? it is one of those things you may as well not say as it isnt ever going to happen.
Also, there is some that seem to think everyone else needs to change their ways whilst they carry on as before, every single road user needs to think and perhaps pitch in.
Chris944 said:
HedgeyGedgey said:
Just ban all ederly people from driving. Job done
Well Hedgey Gedgey, speaking as a 70-year old Porsche driver I say to you in a friendly way "f
k off."ZX10R NIN said:
1) Reduce the number of traffic lights
2) Remove speed humps
3) Stop shutting cut throughs off
4) Up the average speed camera/speed limits out of major cities up from 50mph to 70mph
5) Stop the reduction of carriageway space in towns/cities for cars/HGV's etc & where possible increase it
6) Encourage people to ride scooters/motorbikes
7) Make all the developers that are building all these apartments contribute towards the infrastructure of the town they're building in, I don't just mean the roads I mean schools/shops/surgeries etc if some of those are added locally (in an area where you're looking to add another 200-500 people) then people will not have to use their cars as much.
All the above will not only aid congestion but air quality too.
2) Remove speed humps
3) Stop shutting cut throughs off
4) Up the average speed camera/speed limits out of major cities up from 50mph to 70mph
5) Stop the reduction of carriageway space in towns/cities for cars/HGV's etc & where possible increase it
6) Encourage people to ride scooters/motorbikes
7) Make all the developers that are building all these apartments contribute towards the infrastructure of the town they're building in, I don't just mean the roads I mean schools/shops/surgeries etc if some of those are added locally (in an area where you're looking to add another 200-500 people) then people will not have to use their cars as much.
All the above will not only aid congestion but air quality too.
When I was a kid I went to a first school which was within walking distance of where I lived, then a middle school which was within walking distance of where I lived and then a grammar school which was within walking distance of where I lived. Since then the many small local schools have been replaced by a few larger schools serving a wider area. The net result is that journeys which could have been made by walking now have to be made by road. Then add bus lanes, speed humps, pinch points and streets that are shut off at one end to the equation and you have congestion of epic proportions. Central government blames motorists but the actual cause was a spectacular lack of foresight on the part of local government, at least in my area.
The solution, in part, is to reinstate village schools, get rid of the spiteful anti-motorist elements of road design that have proliferated over the last couple of decades and incentivise employers to facilitate home working for all workers for whom this is practical. Also, the cost of public transport needs to be slashed and train companies need to be forced to run longer trains that can accommodate more passengers.
Then there's the unspeakable elephant in the room - population levels. This is going to have to be acknowledged at some point.
The solution, in part, is to reinstate village schools, get rid of the spiteful anti-motorist elements of road design that have proliferated over the last couple of decades and incentivise employers to facilitate home working for all workers for whom this is practical. Also, the cost of public transport needs to be slashed and train companies need to be forced to run longer trains that can accommodate more passengers.
Then there's the unspeakable elephant in the room - population levels. This is going to have to be acknowledged at some point.
It was mentioned on the first page but working from home should be emphasised over and over until it takes hold...
I suspect this worries the treasury as widespread home working will reduce the tax revenue, and of course the constant meeting types who love the sound of their own voices.
Of course not all jobs can be done from home, but it must be a substantial chunk these days and all of the technology required is mature, cheap, and in widespread use anyway.
I suspect this worries the treasury as widespread home working will reduce the tax revenue, and of course the constant meeting types who love the sound of their own voices.
Of course not all jobs can be done from home, but it must be a substantial chunk these days and all of the technology required is mature, cheap, and in widespread use anyway.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
OK so adding 300,000 people per year to the population has no effect. Got it.Being charitable I'll assume you're using a sort of intellectual sleight of hand. No, reducing net immigration levels wouldn't make it better, but it would slow the rate that it gets worse. Agree?
Edited by Nealio on Saturday 21st October 12:09
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