Reducing Congestion - how would you do it?
Discussion
Stick Legs said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Stick Legs said:
1) Pedestrianise Town and City centres.
Take the centre point of any Town or city and where no first class public transport infrastructure exists draw a 'walkable radius' from there. So in the case of Taunton it would be about 1/2 a mile from the centre outwards.
Make parking provision on the out skirts and make it cheaper the further out you go.
It depends what you want city centres to be for. It would probably be the final nail in the coffin of the high street as a daytime venue, but wouldnt affect the night time economy so much. Take the centre point of any Town or city and where no first class public transport infrastructure exists draw a 'walkable radius' from there. So in the case of Taunton it would be about 1/2 a mile from the centre outwards.
Make parking provision on the out skirts and make it cheaper the further out you go.
If the towns were pedestrianised then the whole experience would be nicer, the shops could open on to the street and people could begin to appreciate the town for what it is. There is some really pleasant architecture and historic buildings in our county towns which are invisible as to stand back and see it would mean being in the middle of the road.
We should not assume that not being able to park out front of the shops means no one goes there.
The town centre could become a 'roofless mall'. Many town would lend themselves to glass awnings down the middle of what used to be roads, allowing all weather access.
1. The sort that want to spend a day shopping/wandering about. Pedestrianisation works for them.
2. In-and-outers like me (ask the wife!). If I can park outside somewhere I'll shop there. If I can't I'll buy it off the internet. Pedestrianisation does not work for me.
Enricogto said:
2. How far for a large city like London or Manchester?
Cities need more outer 'hub' stations like Stratford. Parking is cheap, and you have good underground and overground connections there. If I need to go into London on the weekend and I'm not planning on drinking I normally drive to Stratford and pick up public transit there. Make public transport considerably cheaper.
I commute via train from Stafford to Coventry. The trains are full to the rafters, full of antisocial people and it's an all round miserable experience.
But I would not want to drive on the M6 everyday.
The one thing I do like is what they have in nottingham. You can park your car and catch the tram. Free parking also......
I commute via train from Stafford to Coventry. The trains are full to the rafters, full of antisocial people and it's an all round miserable experience.
But I would not want to drive on the M6 everyday.
The one thing I do like is what they have in nottingham. You can park your car and catch the tram. Free parking also......
RDMcG said:
How about all commercial deliveries to be night time ? Traffic never stops anyway and would spread the load. 10pm to 5am
How would you feel if the government brought in a policy that would have you working nights between 10pm to 5am? Also lots of places have noise restrictions at certain times, places that are near residential areas.
GIYess said:
catso said:
As in thought up by someone with "no brains"...
Maybe won't help congestion on the long term but would help air quality and short term congestion. Who wants to drive in the cities anyway if you didn't have too?And what about those people that for work reason need to get in the city centre?
I very much doubt that anyone "wants" to drive in the cities, especially those who have a crap road layout like London.
GIYess said:
Probably repeating what has already been done but I have a few suggestions.
1. Invest in public transport and bring prices down. (this is really a must in my opinion) I travelled for years into Belfast on the train as my work was within walking distance of station and it really changed my quality of life over driving.
2. (As already said and maybe the best suggestion) Out of town car parks with free/very cheap shuttle bus network.
3. Ban non electric cars from city centres. (again I think this is becoming an increasing "no brainer.")
4. Improved and SEPERATE cycle network within built up areas. Belfast has opened a few separated cycle ways and it would be the only way I'd consider commuting on a bike if I lived in a city.
As a side note, I always wondered that over all the years of congestion in the UK its a wonder that we haven't managed to sort the problem. I honestly think the government is trailing its feet due to the sheer revenue it makes from fossil fuel burning vehicles and any vehicle that pays tax.
1. Invest in public transport and bring prices down. (this is really a must in my opinion) I travelled for years into Belfast on the train as my work was within walking distance of station and it really changed my quality of life over driving.
2. (As already said and maybe the best suggestion) Out of town car parks with free/very cheap shuttle bus network.
3. Ban non electric cars from city centres. (again I think this is becoming an increasing "no brainer.")
4. Improved and SEPERATE cycle network within built up areas. Belfast has opened a few separated cycle ways and it would be the only way I'd consider commuting on a bike if I lived in a city.
As a side note, I always wondered that over all the years of congestion in the UK its a wonder that we haven't managed to sort the problem. I honestly think the government is trailing its feet due to the sheer revenue it makes from fossil fuel burning vehicles and any vehicle that pays tax.
Enricogto said:
1. Ok. Yet in London, today, there are massive areas serviced only by a bus line at best. These are unreliable and slow, often stuck in traffic and some of them are far from "green".
That's why I mentioned investment. I agree the current systems are not up to scratch but investment could improve them. Also with the resultant reduction this could cause in congestion, reliability and timeliness would be increased.Enricogto said:
2. How far for a large city like London or Manchester?
Well presumably as close as possible. Maybe using current out of town shopping complexes that quite often can be half empty during the week. Granted this wouldn't help motorway traffic.Enricogto said:
3. Come again? Conveniently forgetting that the production of EVs is more polluting than that of traditional vehicles, why should be private transport, that represents a fractional component of city traffic, be the one penalised? Why, as some suggested, not starting with trolley buses, trams and more tube lines (by the way, ever tried to measure the air quality in a tube station?
I'm suggesting ways to cut congestion, not ways to save the world. Public transport carries many people in a vastly smaller space than say 35/40 cars with one person in them. They would obviously have to be electric also which is not a pie in the sky idea as electric busses, trams already exist. No I have never measured the air quality in a tube station but I can't imagine there are many fumes from the tube train present! Enricogto said:
4. As a cyclist....hell no! Those who have been built are badly designed, slow and inefficient. A person died no later than last Friday in central London, 100yds from St. Paul, due to the poor road layout introduced with the advent of what you are advocating.
I admit I'm not a cyclist but I would imagine a cycle way separate from roads can only be a good thing? That is if cyclist are willing to use them and not decide that they are better than that and still block the roads. Enricogto said:
You seriously want to reduce congestion, and maybe pollution? Improve the road layout, with fewer "traffic calming" restrictions, take traffic lights away from roundabouts (misses completely the point and look, in the rest of Europe they manage to drive around without killing themselves). Make the roads more free-flowing and at the same time build a network of really functioning and well designed public transport.
And if really you want to see the cars disappearing, why not to dig a network of underground tunnels like for example in Paris, allowing you to cross, without impediment the city north-south and east-west? How long does it take for a car leaving central London to reach Dover? How long would it take if it was able to get on an underground tunnel at, say King's Cross, like the train does, and re-emerge on the m25?
To address your final point, the government don't have endless supplies of money to rebuild the entire road network. To expect our network to rival the relatively modern systems that have been built from scratch in Europe is in my opinion, slightly naive And if really you want to see the cars disappearing, why not to dig a network of underground tunnels like for example in Paris, allowing you to cross, without impediment the city north-south and east-west? How long does it take for a car leaving central London to reach Dover? How long would it take if it was able to get on an underground tunnel at, say King's Cross, like the train does, and re-emerge on the m25?
GIYess said:
Enricogto said:
1. Ok. Yet in London, today, there are massive areas serviced only by a bus line at best. These are unreliable and slow, often stuck in traffic and some of them are far from "green".
That's why I mentioned investment. I agree the current systems are not up to scratch but investment could improve them. Also with the resultant reduction this could cause in congestion, reliability and timeliness would be increased.The works and investment currently being carried out goes in the direction of slowing and funnelling traffic all across the city. A good example is the area around Aldgate station, where single-lane, high-kerbed road layout has been implemented (with over a year of traffic disruptions). The result is that buses (the main users of that road) are forced onto a gymkhana with constant braking-acceleration, that surely is not very good for neither congestion, nor air quality.
Enricogto said:
2. How far for a large city like London or Manchester?
Well presumably as close as possible. Maybe using current out of town shopping complexes that quite often can be half empty during the week. Granted this wouldn't help motorway traffic.Shopping complexes' car parks are private areas, how would that work? And how would people move from those car parks to their final destination?
Enricogto said:
3. Come again? Conveniently forgetting that the production of EVs is more polluting than that of traditional vehicles, why should be private transport, that represents a fractional component of city traffic, be the one penalised? Why, as some suggested, not starting with trolley buses, trams and more tube lines (by the way, ever tried to measure the air quality in a tube station?
I'm suggesting ways to cut congestion, not ways to save the world. Public transport carries many people in a vastly smaller space than say 35/40 cars with one person in them. They would obviously have to be electric also which is not a pie in the sky idea as electric busses, trams already exist. No I have never measured the air quality in a tube station but I can't imagine there are many fumes from the tube train present! Not all journeys can be covered by public transport. Then there's the small matter of the fact that an electric vehicle, of any sort, even without considering the "environmental cost" of production, is NOT zero emission. And, case in point, the tube is the worst one, beating the car 68 to 8. The clue is in the brakes and rail/wheel friction. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-38969190
Enricogto said:
4. As a cyclist....hell no! Those who have been built are badly designed, slow and inefficient. A person died no later than last Friday in central London, 100yds from St. Paul, due to the poor road layout introduced with the advent of what you are advocating.
I admit I'm not a cyclist but I would imagine a cycle way separate from roads can only be a good thing? That is if cyclist are willing to use them and not decide that they are better than that and still block the roads. Not necessarily, especially if they are designed in a way that slows down even bike traffic or that renders them a danger to other road users, like the case I mentioned above,
Enricogto said:
You seriously want to reduce congestion, and maybe pollution? Improve the road layout, with fewer "traffic calming" restrictions, take traffic lights away from roundabouts (misses completely the point and look, in the rest of Europe they manage to drive around without killing themselves). Make the roads more free-flowing and at the same time build a network of really functioning and well designed public transport.
And if really you want to see the cars disappearing, why not to dig a network of underground tunnels like for example in Paris, allowing you to cross, without impediment the city north-south and east-west? How long does it take for a car leaving central London to reach Dover? How long would it take if it was able to get on an underground tunnel at, say King's Cross, like the train does, and re-emerge on the m25?
To address your final point, the government don't have endless supplies of money to rebuild the entire road network. To expect our network to rival the relatively modern systems that have been built from scratch in Europe is in my opinion, slightly naive And if really you want to see the cars disappearing, why not to dig a network of underground tunnels like for example in Paris, allowing you to cross, without impediment the city north-south and east-west? How long does it take for a car leaving central London to reach Dover? How long would it take if it was able to get on an underground tunnel at, say King's Cross, like the train does, and re-emerge on the m25?
Working from home, where possible. As a contractor I've worked in a lot of different companies, and I've been shocked at their attitudes towards working from home. There should be an emphasis on each worker delivering work on a particular date to contribute to a project, rather than the current common emphasis on just showing your face and being in the office. Furthermore, productivity in open plan offices is often worse than in silence at home. If companies won't implement this, the government needs to push the agenda forwards somehow.
As an example, in my sister's last job she had to drive for two hours each way to sit in an office at a hot desk nowhere near anyone she worked with; in fact the people she worked with often weren't even at the site. All she needed to complete her work was a phone and an internet connection. She had to do this five days a week and wasn't allowed to work from home. It was so ridiculous that in the end she left.
As an example, in my sister's last job she had to drive for two hours each way to sit in an office at a hot desk nowhere near anyone she worked with; in fact the people she worked with often weren't even at the site. All she needed to complete her work was a phone and an internet connection. She had to do this five days a week and wasn't allowed to work from home. It was so ridiculous that in the end she left.
SonicShadow said:
Well, it's only taken two pages for the anti-cyclist vs cyclist debate to start. Well done PH!
Both are correct... Cyclists are great congestion reducers in and around town, however, on trunk and and out of town roads they can cause tailbacks and frustration.
I think we need to provide a decent cyclepath network, and cyclists should use them when they are available.
PF62 said:
catso said:
InitialDave said:
PF62 said:
massive increase in bus lanes.
PF62 said:
So make parking far more expensive.
PF62 said:
reduce the number of spaces.
Do you work for a council by any chance?
If you want to reduce congestion you need to reduce the number of cars on the road. The way to do that is make it so horrible to drive that the other options are better.
Maybe the medicine is wrong and you need to consider an alternative one?
'SINGAPORE: Singapore, one of the most expensive places in the world to buy a vehicle, will freeze the number of private cars on its roads for at least two years, a rare move in Asia where many cities are increasingly gridlocked.'
Car numbers to be held static but goods vehicles can increase and there will be massive investment in public transport.
Except Singapore is a nation of only 5.6 million.
At least the government recognises the problem and appears to be implementing a 'joined-up' plan.
Car numbers to be held static but goods vehicles can increase and there will be massive investment in public transport.
Except Singapore is a nation of only 5.6 million.
At least the government recognises the problem and appears to be implementing a 'joined-up' plan.
Having been to Japan which is far more heavily populated than here and a lot less space in their cities and I never saw a single traffic jam. If anything I did'nt see more than 4 or 5 cars at a junction.
Key thing is good public transport, the subway and train system there is fantastic and payment is simple with a contactless card. Meanwhile in Glasgow you need to give exact change because bus drivers don't carry change in case they get mugged.
Once you have a decent subway/train infrastructure then focus on fixing the roads. A lot of trunk roads in the big cities have two levels, lower level is for turning off etc and top level is for high speed, essentially a double decker road. It's not like it's impacting scenery already as there's congested traffic already. safety shouldn't be a concern considering we don't have earthquakes etc.
The problem is that nobody wants to start any longterm project because there's so much redtape/consultation and the benefits will take years to take effect.
Key thing is good public transport, the subway and train system there is fantastic and payment is simple with a contactless card. Meanwhile in Glasgow you need to give exact change because bus drivers don't carry change in case they get mugged.
Once you have a decent subway/train infrastructure then focus on fixing the roads. A lot of trunk roads in the big cities have two levels, lower level is for turning off etc and top level is for high speed, essentially a double decker road. It's not like it's impacting scenery already as there's congested traffic already. safety shouldn't be a concern considering we don't have earthquakes etc.
The problem is that nobody wants to start any longterm project because there's so much redtape/consultation and the benefits will take years to take effect.
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