RE: PH Footnote: Crossed out
Discussion
I decry the dearth of interesting new cars, but on the other hand I understand that the number of people with an emotional interest in cars and driving is declining. For your average person who just needs a nice reliable car to go about in and that maybe has a degree of cool looks or driveway kudos beyond a standard hatchback, a crossover is just about perfect.
@RoverP6B I've been down that road so many times, buying and trying to justify an old car over a new one. Trouble is that every one I've owned has been both a pain and expensive in terms of maintenance. They cost so little at that age for a good reason.
As dreary as it is, in the last 60k miles our Nissan Quashqai has never failed to start, costs us peanuts in maintenance, can easily return 60mpg and the finance deal is almost interest free and for a long duration.
As dreary as it is, in the last 60k miles our Nissan Quashqai has never failed to start, costs us peanuts in maintenance, can easily return 60mpg and the finance deal is almost interest free and for a long duration.
PhilboSE said:
It takes a special sort of throbber to be unable to realise the benefits of a small but roomy car for families in an urban/semi-urban environment.
Isn't that kinda the whole point, though?They aren't particularly small.
They aren't particularly roomy.
They often have a stack of drivetrain gubbins that simply isn't necessary in an urban/semi-urban environment, solely to justify the "lifestyle" marketing.
forzaminardi said:
I decry the dearth of interesting new cars, but on the other hand I understand that the number of people with an emotional interest in cars and driving is declining.
Have you considered that 1 person can have more than 1 car? I take the kids to school in the Tiguan. I go round the Ring in the Megane RS.TooMany2cvs said:
Isn't that kinda the whole point, though?
They aren't particularly small.
They aren't particularly roomy.
They often have a stack of drivetrain gubbins that simply isn't necessary in an urban/semi-urban environment, solely to justify the "lifestyle" marketing.
As demonstrated earlier in this thread comparing Tiguan to Golf Estate. They can be smaller and roomier. While being cheaper / more practical / more comfortable.They aren't particularly small.
They aren't particularly roomy.
They often have a stack of drivetrain gubbins that simply isn't necessary in an urban/semi-urban environment, solely to justify the "lifestyle" marketing.
What stack of drivetrain gubbins ? A 2wd Tiguan doesn't have any more gubbing than a Golf Estate. Nor a 4-motion Tiguan any more than Golf R Estate.
Lifestyle marketing : I am sure this is a factor for some. So what ? The same applies to sport cars, convertibles etc.
More to the point : if one prefers them for the functional reasons explained above and despite the marketing BS / Lifestyle BS (I think they look stupid), should one NOT buy one as to not upset people on PH ?
I appreciate that other people's car image is important to you but personally I don't care about image at all, whether for my car or anyone else's.
Some complaints here (including the original article) may not actually be about crossovers. Such complaints are rather existential. In some ways they resemble the following:
- "I dislike change."
- "Those people are having fun in the wrong way."
- "Some people are not aware of their position on the ladder."
- "When somebody doesn't fall into line, they need to be punished."
- "While traveling abroad, I lose count of all the things that are incorrect."
PhilboSE said:
Why pick on crossovers rather than the whole market? I was given a VW Passat as a courtesy car a while ago: now THAT was something to be derided for its mundanity. The whole driving experience was "sloppy". By contrast my Ateca feels like a whole different class.
Haha so you've picked perhaps the dullest of dull cars, the VW Passat to compare as an example? Have you ever driven a Ford Mondeo or BMW 3 Series? The driving experience is a million miles better than the Ateca or similar bland SUV's. PhilboSE said:
What the juddering f**k is your point here? That everyone who buys a crossover should buy a 10 year old large executive estate? Really? How many such 540i estates do you think are available on the second hand market? Again, compare the running costs of your car with a new crossover (my Ateca is averaging 45mpg, what's your 540i averaging? 22mpg tops).
Errr hello, what on earth has fuel economy or a bit of extra annual maintenance got to do with the argument when you're loosing £3-5k a year in depreciation (or rental fees) on a brand new Ateca? Seems like you've fallen foul of the old save £1,000 a year on fuel but pay an extra £3,000 for the privilege of lower mpg fallacy.No one has an issue with anyone buying an Ateca (or similar) if that's what they choose, yet please don't try to justify it as anything other than 'need a new car itus'. The sensible money would be to probably buy a 3yr old 330d Estate, you wouldn't be tied in to an onerous lease scheme and you'd also probably actually enjoy driving the thing. Personally I do far too many miles on the road to put up with driving something bland or sh*t, however practical and family orientated I need my car to be. Driving is a big part of my life so I may as well enjoy it.
TooMany2cvs said:
PhilboSE said:
It takes a special sort of throbber to be unable to realise the benefits of a small but roomy car for families in an urban/semi-urban environment.
Isn't that kinda the whole point, though?They aren't particularly small.
They aren't particularly roomy.
They often have a stack of drivetrain gubbins that simply isn't necessary in an urban/semi-urban environment, solely to justify the "lifestyle" marketing.
They are roomier than hatchbacks of the same size. This is undeniable if you actually compare them with cars of similar length.
They don't have any extra "drivetrain gubbins".
These cars are marketed on urban practicality, I don't really know what "lifestyle marketing" to which you refer.
Andy20vt said:
Errr hello, what on earth has fuel economy or a bit of extra annual maintenance got to do with the argument when you're loosing £3-5k a year in depreciation (or rental fees) on a brand new Ateca? Seems like you've fallen foul of the old save £1,000 a year on fuel but pay an extra £3,000 for the privilege of lower mpg fallacy.
No one has an issue with anyone buying an Ateca (or similar) if that's what they choose, yet please don't try to justify it as anything other than 'need a new car itus'. The sensible money would be to probably buy a 3yr old 330d Estate, you wouldn't be tied in to an onerous lease scheme and you'd also probably actually enjoy driving the thing.
So, apparently people shouldn't be buying a crossover, they should be buying 10 year old 5 series estates, or a 3 year old 330d, or whatever. I thought the argument against crossovers was that they were heavier and less fuel efficient than the equivalent hatchback/estate/whatever. Yet the solution is to buy cars which are 500kg heavier apparently and less economical, more expensive to insure and run. I know this will really grate against your prejudices, but a 330d just isn't as roomy inside as the Ateca AND it's a bigger car. And, IMO, a 330d isn't exactly an inspirational drive. It's still an appliance of a vehicle, albeit a more expensive one.No one has an issue with anyone buying an Ateca (or similar) if that's what they choose, yet please don't try to justify it as anything other than 'need a new car itus'. The sensible money would be to probably buy a 3yr old 330d Estate, you wouldn't be tied in to an onerous lease scheme and you'd also probably actually enjoy driving the thing.
You just need to understand that different people have different compromises to make in their choice of vehicle. Banging on that everyone should drive a second hand "driver's car" is just a conceit. I've got a whole bunch of "driver's cars" and yet I still decided to buy a crossover. Horses for courses.
Andy20vt said:
Personally I do far too many miles on the road to put up with driving something bland or sh*t, however practical and family orientated I need my car to be. Driving is a big part of my life so I may as well enjoy it.
I'm sure if driving is a hobby then you can seek out enjoyable roads. But they're not something most people encounter in everyday life. Potholes and speedbumps are more likely everyday occurrences - SUVs (but not the ones with stupid size wheels) are great for dealing with those.Andy20vt said:
Haha so you've picked perhaps the dullest of dull cars, the VW Passat to compare as an example? Have you ever driven a Ford Mondeo or BMW 3 Series? The driving experience is a million miles better than the Ateca or similar bland SUV's.
Have you driven a Lotus Exige ? The driving experience is a million miles better than the a Mondeo/3-series or similar bland eco-boxes ?Andy20vt said:
Errr hello, what on earth has fuel economy or a bit of extra annual maintenance got to do with the argument when you're loosing £3-5k a year in depreciation (or rental fees) on a brand new Ateca? Seems like you've fallen foul of the old save £1,000 a year on fuel but pay an extra £3,000 for the privilege of lower mpg fallacy.
What has this got to do with used vs new ? Andy20vt said:
No one has an issue with anyone buying an Ateca (or similar) if that's what they choose, yet please don't try to justify it as anything other than 'need a new car itus'.
People don't particularly need to justify anything, it's in your head. New cars can be great, SUV or not. It's a free world anyway. If no one buys new cars, how are you gonna buy old ones ?Andy20vt said:
an onerous lease scheme
What has this got to do with finance method ? BBC News article on NOx emissions said:
...the worst is the Nissan Qashqai, which last month overtook the Ford Fiesta to become the UK's most registered car (counting diesel and petrol models together). The Qashqai N-Connecta DCI CVT (1598cc) produces 1.46g of NOx per kilometre. That is more than 18 times Europe's 0.08g/km limit. It's almost twice [Mk3 Golf 1.8 GL petrol]'s score. Five [Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDis] would produce less NOx than this version of the Qashqai.
Doesn't this kind of thing matter? Why isn't it on the front page of the papers? The Qaalude is actually killing people!Bill said:
Just picking up on two points... (And ignoring your silliness about FF RRs...)
One of my neighbours is a semi-retired farmer who runs 50 acres or so. He has tractors and a quad for the actual work but drives a Vauxhall Mocca.
And I have a Subaru Tribeca (basically a 7 seat Outback) and it does roll a fair bit, more in fact than my previous ACE equipped Disco2. It is much quicker though.
I know a few people with Qashqais and none of them care about (or probably notice) a bit more body roll and a small decrease in MPG. They like the look and practicality (and one would put kayaks on the roof but he got one with a panoramic roof...
). And I know an estate has more room, but the Qashqai is shorter and feels bigger, and the +2 gives you 7 seats without being an MPV.
Saw a couple of Disco 4s the other day, forgot how nice they are if you can't stretch to the FFRR or need 7 seats. I can just about stomach an XC90 too. Tribeca - did they even sell any other than yours? I only ever saw them on the forecourt at Bell & Colvill, never once spotted one on the road. Nice on paper but just so bloody ugly... Qashqais aren't practical! They're tiny inside, like a reverse Tardis... and the second gen is huge on the outside! Yeah, you lose a bit of length compared to an estate, but guess what, length is the one dimension on our roads that is theoretically infinite. I've never got into my estates and thought 'I wish this car was shorter'. Narrower, yes (when I'm on a single track country lane)... and they're low enough not to clout things like car park height restrictors.One of my neighbours is a semi-retired farmer who runs 50 acres or so. He has tractors and a quad for the actual work but drives a Vauxhall Mocca.
And I have a Subaru Tribeca (basically a 7 seat Outback) and it does roll a fair bit, more in fact than my previous ACE equipped Disco2. It is much quicker though.
I know a few people with Qashqais and none of them care about (or probably notice) a bit more body roll and a small decrease in MPG. They like the look and practicality (and one would put kayaks on the roof but he got one with a panoramic roof...
). And I know an estate has more room, but the Qashqai is shorter and feels bigger, and the +2 gives you 7 seats without being an MPV.nickfrog said:
Utterly irrelevant for the purpose of a family small SUV. I tell you what, every time I drive the Tiguan I am gob smacked at how car like it is in terms of handling, lateral grip, damping, traction etc... The effect of a higher COG has zero detriment when I drive it at road speed/pace and occasionally beyond.
I am not convinced that an old, high mileage 540i estate would be that much better. Ask me how I know!
I also know how frugal a 540i estate is. Not very.
Each to their own, but that works both ways.
Hmm, I don't see a 540iT in your garage, but then I've yet to update mine... I didn't say I'd recommend my bus as the responsible choice for MPG-conscious motorists though! So far, it's been returning ~25mpg, driven very conservatively as I get to know it... it seems to get better the faster it goes. I did suggest, however, a range of pretty economical modern estates as analogous to my bus in many ways. Braking performance is of the utmost importance in any car - every foot you save making a full emergency stop is one foot more away from an impact. In a family car, that's utterly crucial. Why people put up with mushy unresponsive brakes, I'll never understand. CofG - my 540iT w/sport suspension sits 2 inches lower than my 520iT. Guess what? On an average Surrey B-road, even some A-roads (the A248 through Albury has a tight double S-bend that will catch out a soggy chassis) there's a noticeable reduction in roll, and at speed when the 520i is starting to let me know it's reaching the limits of lateral grip, the 540i is still on rails. Swap either of them for e.g. an E53 X5, it's going to roll far more. Basic physics!I am not convinced that an old, high mileage 540i estate would be that much better. Ask me how I know!
I also know how frugal a 540i estate is. Not very.
Each to their own, but that works both ways.
PhilboSE said:
Crossovers aren't SUVs. They are not sold as such. They are taller versions of the hatchbacks on which they are based. They have the same drivetrains, same interiors, basically it's the identical experience to the hatchback
They're sold using marketing gibberish promoting an outdoorsy adventurous lifestyle that they can't live up to because they'd get stuck in a damp field.PhilboSE said:
except you have moreless interior space for a tiny substantial reduction in fuel economy
FTFY!PhilboSE said:
RoverP6B said:
I could make an exception for the Subaru Outback, Forester etc because they're proper workmanlike vehicles used by real country folk for country work.
Which is a completely different sector. Permanent 4WD estates vs 2WD crossovers, so another facile observation. But let's stick with it. Have you compared the price and fuel economy of these cars vs the crossovers? Why do you think crossovers outsell them 1000 to 1?PhilboSE said:
What the juddering f**k is your point here? That everyone who buys a crossover should buy a 10 year old large executive estate? Really? How many such 540i estates do you think are available on the second hand market? Again, compare the running costs of your car with a new crossover (my Ateca is averaging 45mpg, what's your 540i averaging? 22mpg tops). You're comparing a much bigger car with a smaller one and are impressed that the bigger one can carry more stuff. You're probably also the kind of person who can't see the point of a large SUV, I mean who needs 7 seats and all that space anyway?
See above. Yeah, it burns a bit of juice (not as bad as you suggest), but it's not filling the air with toxic particulates either. No, I don't think everyone should go out and buy one of these, as wonderful as they are. However, my point is, overall it's no bigger than these mid-size SUVs. You gain a bit of length, lose a load of height, get a bigger more usable loadspace (i.e. my E39 will haul a load of stuff that just won't fit in the likes of an X3)... and some of these estates (most notably Mercedes E-classes) can be had as 7-seaters too.PhilboSE said:
Again, these aren't SUVs. Your estates are bigger cars. These crossovers are basically tall hatchbacks. All this better handling, going/stopping and particularly fuel is just utter guff. You go on about fuel but that obviously wasn't a consideration when you bought the 540i. I've had that engine in one of my cars. You could practically watch the fuel gauge move.
The main thing is, FOR THE JOBS THEY ARE BUILT/SOLD FOR, which is urban shuttling and mixed family duties, these crossovers are simply going to be a much better choice than your 540i. You may have different requirements, which is why manufacturers make different sorts of cars. It takes a special sort of throbber to be unable to realise the benefits of a small but roomy car for families in an urban/semi-urban environment.
Have you seen the size of these crossover wThe main thing is, FOR THE JOBS THEY ARE BUILT/SOLD FOR, which is urban shuttling and mixed family duties, these crossovers are simply going to be a much better choice than your 540i. You may have different requirements, which is why manufacturers make different sorts of cars. It takes a special sort of throbber to be unable to realise the benefits of a small but roomy car for families in an urban/semi-urban environment.
kmobiles?! They're bloody enormous outside, way wider as well as taller than my old bus, there's not that much in it length-wise, and yet there's no pay-off internally, the boot floor is tiny and far too high, and in the real world where handling matters, the difference between a Golf and a Tiguan could be the difference between the car staying on its wheels or rolling, and that can be the difference between life and death. I've seen too many fatal accidents occur on local roads here simply because of a car rolling when it shouldn't have done. Any tall, short-coupled hatch can do so, even stuff like a Fiat 500 (in which one 18yo girl died locally to here, clipped mirrors with another car, the 500 started to tip, went over and rolled into a tree). If you've got to have something tall and more prone to rolling, there had better be a bloody good justification for it in the way of off-road capability...PhilboSE said:
RoverP6B said:
Extrapolating all this out to a point of relevance to the newer-car buyer - does the Quaalude, at around 25 grand new, actually do anything that (glancing at the classifieds) a year-old Golf R Estate, or a similar-vintage 2.0 or even 3.0 TDI Audi A6 Avant, or Subaru Outback, or a 3-year-old E350 petrol estate, won't do at least as well, if not better?
A new car comes with a warranty, the crossovers will all do better economy than your examples, be cheaper to run and insure. Why didn't you buy a 20 year old Merc E class estate? After all, it would have been cheaper and more reliable than your 540i...Just analyse your own buying decisions and then engage your brain to wonder why some people make different decisions, with different factors to consider.
k's sake! Even a poverty spec 1.4 is nearly 28 grand, and a halfway decent mid-range example is around 32k! That's just downright daylight robbery... an A4 Avant will be better in many quantifiable ways and is no more money engine-for-engine...BTW, a 20-year-old E-class means a W210, and no, those are not better in any way than an E39. BMW quality in that era was vastly superior. W124s are lovely but so much older.
nickfrog said:
New cars can be great
No. Sorry, they're not. If I had 2.5 million quid to go and spend on cars tomorrow, I wouldn't buy a single new car. Nobody makes anything remotely interesting any more. Turbocharging everywhere, electric steering, electronic parking brakes, crap ride quality... it's a dreadful time to be a car enthusiast. All I can do is stay stuck in a now-bygone era... and I've just asked my sons (18 and 26) what they think. They agree. They couldn't give a toss about anything being made now. Even just 5 years ago, that was a different story. Porsche 997, E92 M3, M156 AMGs, naturally-aspirated V8 and V12 Aston Martins - all were still in production then... now, it's just more and more dreary turbocharged dullness. Manufacturers care more about the NEDC, CO2 and iPhone connectivity than throttle response and steering feel now, and that's a damn shame.nickfrog said:
Andy20vt said:
Haha so you've picked perhaps the dullest of dull cars, the VW Passat to compare as an example? Have you ever driven a Ford Mondeo or BMW 3 Series? The driving experience is a million miles better than the Ateca or similar bland SUV's.
Have you driven a Lotus Exige ? The driving experience is a million miles better than the a Mondeo/3-series or similar bland eco-boxes ?Have you flown an Extra 300 aerobatic aircraft? The responsiveness and control experience is a million miles better than a Lotus Exige or similar generic track day cars.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 22 October 23:27
If one of the selling points is high seating position for better visibility, what happens when there are lots of them around?
Does everyone go a size taller?
I dislike them for purely selfish reasons - my daily driver is low-slung, and the taller other cars get, the worse visibility gets for me.
Does everyone go a size taller?
I dislike them for purely selfish reasons - my daily driver is low-slung, and the taller other cars get, the worse visibility gets for me.
Andy20vt said:
I have actually.
Have you flown an Extra 300 aerobatic aircraft? The responsiveness and control experience is a million miles better than a Lotus Exige or similar generic track day cars.
Exactly, why don't you fly it to Sainsburys for the week's shopping ? Utterly irrelevant in the context of safe/comfortable family road transport. I have no issues with anyone preferring a Mondeo/3-series to an Ateca for the "driving experience" (I can't think of anything duller than those 2 from a driving experience POV, so one might as well choose the car that is more practical for THEM, even if it's slightly duller to drive as this criteria would appear totally irrelevant).Have you flown an Extra 300 aerobatic aircraft? The responsiveness and control experience is a million miles better than a Lotus Exige or similar generic track day cars.
AW111 said:
If one of the selling points is high seating position for better visibility, what happens when there are lots of them around?
Don't worry, everyone will switch back to a 15 year old 540i Estate soon as they hate their small SUV, particularly parents who enjoy breaching the limits of lat grip and powerslide most mini-roundabouts on their way to drop the kids to school. They usually then go straight to a track day where the 540i's superior brakes allow them up to 10 consecutive hot laps without fade while returning 35mpg. They have so little roll that they usually pull 1.5g too, not that the two have anything to do with each other. 
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 23 October 09:50
RoverP6B said:
The fact is, a Passat is not a good example of its breed. A Mundano or a 3er does exactly the same thing, but better.
Worse, in my experience. I have no issues with anyone preferring a Monde/3-series - why can't people understand that different people have different preferences/needs ?Is it that difficult ?
nickfrog said:
Exactly, why don't you fly it to Sainsburys for the week's shopping ? Utterly irrelevant in the context of safe/comfortable family road transport. I have no issues with anyone preferring a Mondeo/3-series to an Ateca for the "driving experience" (I can't think of anything duller than those 2 from a driving experience POV, so one might as well choose the car that is more practical for THEM, even if it's slightly duller to drive as this criteria would appear totally irrelevant).
Haha not getting that what I said was tongue in cheek are you? Just wondering how the Lotus Exige you suggested is also suitable transport for the whole family?The Mondeo and 3 Series Touring are lovely to drive by the standards of today's dull offerings for family transport. Okay sure, they're still not as responsive or as fun as yesterdays heroes but compared to the utter drivel that's out there at the moment (from a driving and enjoyment perspective rather than an iPhone connectivity perspective) then they're streets ahead of dross like the Passat, and a raft of non-descript, not particularly good at anything, jellymould SUV wannabees.
Buy what you like - I don't have an issue with that, just don't expect me to understand it as it's simply not logical. It's completely irrational that a family man who likes driving would hobble themselves, at great expense, for 95% of the time driving a car that's utter guff to drive, yet keep a fun car in the garage for once in a blue moon when the kids don't need transporting. Sure have the Lotus (or similar) as a weekend drive but why don't you also buy something that's enjoyable to drive for the 95% of the time you actually spend driving?
Andy20vt said:
nickfrog said:
Exactly, why don't you fly it to Sainsburys for the week's shopping ? Utterly irrelevant in the context of safe/comfortable family road transport. I have no issues with anyone preferring a Mondeo/3-series to an Ateca for the "driving experience" (I can't think of anything duller than those 2 from a driving experience POV, so one might as well choose the car that is more practical for THEM, even if it's slightly duller to drive as this criteria would appear totally irrelevant).
Haha not getting that what I said was tongue in cheek are you? Just wondering how the Lotus Exige you suggested is also suitable transport for the whole family?The Mondeo and 3 Series Touring are lovely to drive by the standards of today's dull offerings for family transport. Okay sure, they're still not as responsive or as fun as yesterdays heroes but compared to the utter drivel that's out there at the moment (from a driving and enjoyment perspective rather than an iPhone connectivity perspective) then they're streets ahead of dross like the Passat, and a raft of non-descript, not particularly good at anything, jellymould SUV wannabees.
Buy what you like - I don't have an issue with that, just don't expect me to understand it as it's simply not logical. It's completely irrational that a family man who likes driving would hobble themselves, at great expense, for 95% of the time driving a car that's utter guff to drive, yet keep a fun car in the garage for once in a blue moon when the kids don't need transporting. Sure have the Lotus (or similar) as a weekend drive but why don't you also buy something that's enjoyable to drive for the 95% of the time you actually spend driving?
Where does the 95% comes from ? Where does the great expense comes from (Crossovers are cheaper than Mondeo/3ers) ?
It's possible to have more than 1 car. Why hobble yourself with a Mondeo/3er that's utter guff to drive for 95% of the time ? When the kids don't need transporting I take the Megane RS, including for track days and Ring trips. Having said that, the Tiguan is far better for long motorway drives, and IME better than an equivalent budget Mondeo/3er.
Different jobs, different cars. To transport the kids / family touring, a smaller crossover is infinitely better IME. They really drive very well dynamically at "normal" road speeds. The COG height delta in my experience is of no practical detriment, believe it or not they have tuned the suspension kinematics to suit. But I wouldn't track one, nor would I track a Mondeo/3er.
I can't see anything irrational / illogical in my experience based thought process.
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 23 October 13:59
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