ULEZ charge in 2021

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heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
Blimey. Look what else might be coming. frown

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/ca18/the-peters...

>>Addendum
Please note that due to California emissions, this vehicle must be sold to a dealer or out-of-state resident.<<

For an '86 944 Turbo.

DonkeyApple

54,915 posts

168 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
1. I have never seen any study, ever I believe, that shows that overall people that do exercise end up worse off than people not doing exercise, and as we well know, it's not doing exercise that is a *real* shortener of lives (and is the over-riding factor in what will shorten my life imo) than the 3 days on average that particulate emissions costs us according to Greenpeace.

There's some more govt figures here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

>>Emissions of PM10 in 2016 have fallen by 73 per cent since 1970, to 170 thousand tonnes. Emissions of PM2.5 in 2016 have fallen by 78 per cent since 1970, to 108 thousand tonnes. emissions decreased by 3.7 per cent between 2015 and 2016.<<

Since 1970, when there were more people cycling than today, key particulate emissions have fallen by 73 and 78%! And in any case, after the cyclist has finished his ride, where does he go then? Indoors, where he spends most of his time, where *every* resource and/or authority appears to be saying that pollution levels are higher.

So I completely dismiss any notion that cyclists or anyone else, is in any material danger from air pollution here in the UK by exercising outdoors.

I take my stance because:

Air quality is possibly the best it's ever been since records began.

The notion that air quality is getting worse is completely the opposite of the facts, but this is the message being pushed.

Vehicles overall are the cleanest they've ever been since records began* (with a proviso).

Vehicle overall are becoming and will become ever cleaner.

Electric vehicles are coming which could huge differences to levels of local pollution, even if they may poison other people elsewhere.

Electric bicycles are coming, and if we would only make provision for them (which most UK towns and cities won't ) they could make a major change in urban travel.

For these reason our air is going to get ever cleaner and there's no need for local politicians to interfere (we wouldn't have had the diesel 'crisis' had politicians not interfered imo).

I mean, look at the lines on some of those graphs on the govt doc that I've liked to - there's multiple 45 degree lines on those graphs, such are the improvements in recent times.

My proviso over vehicles - Imo the internet has played a significant factor in emissions, because up to just a short 20 years ago or so we could not buy unlimited tat and have it delivered to our doors, and nor could we recycle around the country the tat we don't like. I think it's amazing that I can have a small package of plastic widgets for my latest old car delivered to work for £2.99 all in, but how many diesel-powered miles have those widgets done, and where in the world did they originate? I've no idea, but I know I only paid £2.99 for them, including packing and single-use polythene packet.

I know there's no more hgvs on the roads than decades ago, but I think they're travelling many more miles and there's been a big growth in numbers of vans/light commercial traffic, and these may be the reasons why there's been a decline in the rates of improvements in air quality in the last few years (but still doesn't mean air quality is getting worse).

And of course, we could always copy Europe - close the shops on Sundays; stop most hgvs from operating on Sundays; get millions of people out of cars and onto bicycles, should they want to. And pick the sodding litter up! Birmingham is simply awash with litter, all decaying and decomposing and blown about by the wind. From what I'm seeing , this is an issue that western Europe has got sorted whilst the UK couldn't care less. There are many things that could be done, before penalising people who just want to go to work.

2. I just do not accept that. Particulates come with living on Planet Earth (dust being possibly the most common form of particulate), diesel and vehicle particulates has been with us for decades, and the only difference in recent years, according to the govt, is there's distinctly less of it nowadays.




Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 15th December 09:24


Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 15th December 11:20
Not all particulates are equal. That’s kind of the point. Just google the flyash studies. For example the Eastern European lignite flyash v black coal for the simplest examples.

The size is very important as to how much damage they do to humans.

The shape is important and the toxins contained in the surface.

This is known science from the 70s and why years ago on PH I posted about the dangers of the U.K. taxation of CO2 pushing consumers to diesel.

For example, high heat produced flyash will have a very spherical form and our lungs are not all that impacted by it. The lungs process it out quite quickly and efficiently:



Conversely, take a lower heat flyash where the original compound was dirty with heavy metals or other toxic to human compounds and you have something very nasty to humans as it’s texture both sticks in the lungs and the higher surface area contains more toxins:



Now look at diesel and bear in mind that diesel contains plenty of toxins that cling to the particulate surface:



Aeroplane



Forget about natural dust as found in buildings as that is mostly skin which is utterly non toxic.

The key is to not give any focus to the levels of particulates. It doesn’t matter if one zone has more than another of if today there are fewer than yesterday. What matters is what those particulates are. Their size. Their shape and the toxins carried on their surface.

Somewhere on the web might be the paper I wrote and was published on this subject back in the 90s but I have no idea how to find it. What I can say is that the references were papers on LA and London air back in the 70s when all of this was known along with papers on the East/West coal urban usage from the 80s and early 90s and the difference in lung and associates diseases such as heavy metal poisoning and its effects on dementia and brain growth.

Now, if you run an indy garage business in an urban environment then I can see the potential impact from all the customers being forced to by new(er) cars but a small flipside is that the air will be safer for joggers and cyclists.

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
1. The key is to not give any focus to the levels of particulates. It doesn’t matter if one zone has more than another of if today there are fewer than yesterday. What matters is what those particulates are. Their size. Their shape and the toxins carried on their surface.


2. Now, if you run an indy garage business in an urban environment then I can see the potential impact from all the customers being forced to by new(er) cars

3. but a small flipside is that the air will be safer for joggers and cyclists.
1. Diesel and ice generated particulates have been around for a very long time, but now there's less of it and getting ever less. I spent my childhood walking to school in the sixties alongside congested roads full of vehicles immeasurably dirtier than today, and alongside houses with coal fires as ours had, yet nevertheless we are getting healthier, staying healthier and living longer. Europe has used diesel cars more than we have and still across the board AFAIAA levies less tax on derv than petrol to make it significantly cheaper. All we've done is catch up with Europe a bit. European children have cycled to school en masse in ways and numbers that British children never have, so if there is anything to learn from them regarding diesel we would have found it, yet European children are routinely found to be healthier and happier than British children, so I think there is nothing or little to find.

2. That is indeed what it's all about, certainly here in Birmingham. The clean air zone is an enormous project underwritten by major lease company Alphabet who are wholly owned by BMW, a company facing allegations for cheating over emissions. https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/brands-and-services/al...https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/18/g...
I can't speak about London but for the rest country these schemes are about shifting metal, there is no way these businesses are on board for the good of our health.

3. But it's coming anyway! And the air will only be safer outside mind, not indoors where people are subjected for higher levels of pollution for far longer times. Plus petrols bring us higher rates of CO2. But by introducing these schemes now, imo they are pushing people out of one ice-powered car into another one, and nobody thinks these are good for the environment.

It's hard to say what the impact of the Clean Air Zone in Birmingham will be, and I've little doubt that retail must be nervous. I mean why worry about shopping in Birmingham and worrying about your car being complaint when there's a good many out-of-town retail parks where there's no clean air zone and no parking charges either?

What I do think is that I doubt very much that in 5-10 years there'll be any difference measurable that could be attributed to forcing people to buy newer cars. The politicians effed things up by interfering and pushing us into diesel, now they're at it again, instead of just letting the natural order and natural wastage run it's course.

ETA >>A section of the London Marathon route saw an 89 per cent drop in air pollution on race day, according to new figures. <<
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-mara...

Now Europe achieves that throughout most towns and cities every week, does it not, by shutting the shops and removing the need for shoppers and workers to drive in? I know retail won't like that either, but at least it'll be a more level playing field if all retail shuts once a week. Stop the hgvs too on Sundays. Stop the nonsense of articulated lorries driving past LEZ/ULEZ signs in surburban London on a Sunday morning en route to the supermarkets.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 15th December 15:24

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
DonkeyApple said:
1. I don’t get why you are taking this stance to be honest. Studies show that cyclists inhale more PM2.5 particulates and deeper into their lungs because of their higher heart rate and that just like the jogger researchbof the 70s the real damage is done because during these periods of higher heart rate the body opens up the alveoli to get more oxygen in so the human body takes in more damaging particulates into the most dangerous part of the body.

2. I also don’t get why you don’t see that a fall in overall particulates is not necessarily pertinent as it is the size, shape, surface area and chemicals on the surface that are relevant in terms of long term human health.
1. I have never seen any study, ever I believe, that shows that overall people that do exercise end up worse off than people not doing exercise, and as we well know, it's not doing exercise that is a *real* shortener of lives (and is the over-riding factor in what will shorten my life imo) than the 3 days on average that particulate emissions costs us according to Greenpeace.

There's some more govt figures here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

>>Emissions of PM10 in 2016 have fallen by 73 per cent since 1970, to 170 thousand tonnes. Emissions of PM2.5 in 2016 have fallen by 78 per cent since 1970, to 108 thousand tonnes. emissions decreased by 3.7 per cent between 2015 and 2016.<<

Since 1970, when there were more people cycling than today, key particulate emissions have fallen by 73 and 78%! And in any case, after the cyclist has finished his ride, where does he go then? Indoors, where he spends most of his time, where *every* resource and/or authority appears to be saying that pollution levels are higher.

So I completely dismiss any notion that cyclists or anyone else, is in any material danger from air pollution here in the UK by exercising outdoors.

I take my stance because:

Air quality is possibly the best it's ever been since records began.

The notion that air quality is getting worse is completely the opposite of the facts, but this is the message being pushed.

Vehicles overall are the cleanest they've ever been since records began* (with a proviso).

Vehicle overall are becoming and will become ever cleaner.

Electric vehicles are coming which could huge differences to levels of local pollution, even if they may poison other people elsewhere.

Electric bicycles are coming, and if we would only make provision for them (which most UK towns and cities won't ) they could make a major change in urban travel.

For these reason our air is going to get ever cleaner and there's no need for local politicians to interfere (we wouldn't have had the diesel 'crisis' had politicians not interfered imo).

I mean, look at the lines on some of those graphs on the govt doc that I've liked to - there's multiple 45 degree lines on those graphs, such are the improvements in recent times.

My proviso over vehicles - Imo the internet has played a significant factor in emissions, because up to just a short 20 years ago or so we could not buy unlimited tat and have it delivered to our doors, and nor could we recycle around the country the tat we don't like. I think it's amazing that I can have a small package of plastic widgets for my latest old car delivered to work for £2.99 all in, but how many diesel-powered miles have those widgets done, and where in the world did they originate? I've no idea, but I know I only paid £2.99 for them, including packing and single-use polythene packet.

I know there's no more hgvs on the roads than decades ago, but I think they're travelling many more miles and there's been a big growth in numbers of vans/light commercial traffic, and these may be the reasons why there's been a decline in the rates of improvements in air quality in the last few years (but still doesn't mean air quality is getting worse).

And of course, we could always copy Europe - close the shops on Sundays; stop most hgvs from operating on Sundays; get millions of people out of cars and onto bicycles, should they want to. And pick the sodding litter up! Birmingham is simply awash with litter, all decaying and decomposing and blown about by the wind. From what I'm seeing , this is an issue that western Europe has got sorted whilst the UK couldn't care less. There are many things that could be done, before penalising people who just want to go to work.

2. I just do not accept that. Particulates come with living on Planet Earth (dust being possibly the most common form of particulate), diesel and vehicle particulates has been with us for decades, and the only difference in recent years, according to the govt, is there's distinctly less of it nowadays.




Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 15th December 09:24


Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 15th December 11:20
The trouble I have with these sort of discussions be they on an Internet forum, high up in the echelons of senior government or anywhere in between is that nowadays we always look to move backwards to combat the problems we have created by moving forwards. This is the difference between this century and the two previous centuries. We made massive progress in the 1800s and 1900s and we need to keep moving forwards.

Not picking on your post per se, but to say we should look to be closing shops on Sundays, discouraging Internet commerce, getting people onto bikes etc. is not the answer to progress. What we need to do is find better ways to combat the problems of these activities such that we can make them better and keep making progress.

As an addendum we all know the simplest answer to solving pollution in cities like London, but no one wants to talk about it as concentrating population into as small an area as possible makes lots of sense... not!

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
1. We made massive progress in the 1800s and 1900s and we need to keep moving forwards.

2. Not picking on your post per se, but to say we should look to be closing shops on Sundays, discouraging Internet commerce, getting people onto bikes etc. is not the answer to progress. What we need to do is find better ways to combat the problems of these activities such that we can make them better and keep making progress.
1. We are. Why would you think it has stopped? We have WLTP in now, http://wltpfacts.eu/when-will-wltp-changes-take-pl...
which by all accounts is giving the manufacturers a major headache, plus electric vehicles tto. Both really significant things that will genuinely make a difference. The air is just going to get cleaner and cleaner, if only we can keep the idiotic politicians out of it.

2. Again, that is all happening right now, WLTP came in just back in September, but we could do more if we stopped being the dirty man of Europe too.

ZX10R NIN

27,490 posts

124 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
Also Euro7 diesel hybrids will be even cleaner again with most Manufacturers adopting Bosch's tech which already makes them compliant already.

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/dies...

heebeegeetee

28,590 posts

247 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
ZX10R NIN said:
Also Euro7 diesel hybrids will be even cleaner again with most Manufacturers adopting Bosch's tech which already makes them compliant already.

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/dies...
Can you imagine if the politicians, having pushed us into diesel, push us out just at the time they get cleaner?

'kin 'ell.


anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 15th December 2018
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
cb1965 said:
1. We made massive progress in the 1800s and 1900s and we need to keep moving forwards.

2. Not picking on your post per se, but to say we should look to be closing shops on Sundays, discouraging Internet commerce, getting people onto bikes etc. is not the answer to progress. What we need to do is find better ways to combat the problems of these activities such that we can make them better and keep making progress.
1. We are. Why would you think it has stopped? We have WLTP in now, http://wltpfacts.eu/when-will-wltp-changes-take-pl...
which by all accounts is giving the manufacturers a major headache, plus electric vehicles tto. Both really significant things that will genuinely make a difference. The air is just going to get cleaner and cleaner, if only we can keep the idiotic politicians out of it.

2. Again, that is all happening right now, WLTP came in just back in September, but we could do more if we stopped being the dirty man of Europe too.
Sorry, I'm referring to more than just vehicles, we are obsessed with banning things rather than fixing the problems and we are way too focused on chasing safety figures that will never be achieved in all walks of life.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
bristolracer said:
If the powers that be want us out of cars,they have to provide alternatives that people can realistically use.
Probably the stupidest thing written in this thread.
Car ownership in London is already minuscule (<30%) because the available alternatives work so well.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
C70R said:
bristolracer said:
If the powers that be want us out of cars,they have to provide alternatives that people can realistically use.
Probably the stupidest thing written in this thread.
Car ownership in London is already minuscule (<30%) because the available alternatives work so well.
The available alternatives are less bad than using a car is a far more accurate assessment of he situation. The tube, buses, taxis, walking and cycling all have their own set of issues that make them a pretty awful experience or are inaccessible to some for various reasons. You are never going to tell me that sniffing someone's armpit on a crowded tube train is a definition of 'working well' to any sane normal person i.e someone who doesn't just accept crap in life in order to live somewhere like London.

Also car ownership is low compared to other parts of the country not just because people don't want one, but because they cannot afford one when they factor in their living costs and the cost of car ownership in London being much higher than elsewhere.

DonkeyApple

54,915 posts

168 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
That’s really not correct. It’s the most connected place in the U.K. and you really don’t need a car. And sniffing people’s armpits is just a niche fetish thing rather than a mobility issue.

I rarely bother driving in London. It’s a genuine inconvenience in contrast to other means of getting about.

The bulk of the traffic and congestion really is caused by the people who don’t live in London.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
That’s really not correct. It’s the most connected place in the U.K. and you really don’t need a car. And sniffing people’s armpits is just a niche fetish thing rather than a mobility issue.

I rarely bother driving in London. It’s a genuine inconvenience in contrast to other means of getting about.

The bulk of the traffic and congestion really is caused by the people who don’t live in London.
Completely agree. You'd have to be horribly anti-London to claim that its transport alternatives aren't up to scratch. They do a great job of moving several million people every day (in spite of their obvious limitations), and they are up there with many other major first-world cities.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
[quote=C70RThey do a great job of moving several million people every day (in spite of their obvious limitations.
[/quote]

Leaving aside you being utterly in love with London and all who sail in her they really don't, you like so many others are just accepting mediocre as being acceptable which is why we are heading backwards in terms of real progress. You will no doubt post otherwise, but this isn't limited to London (although it's worse than most) so save another round of the C70R pro London rhetoric for someone who gives a st what you think!

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
They do a great job of moving several million people every day (in spite of their obvious limitations.
Leaving aside you being utterly in love with London and all who sail in her they really don't, you like so many others are just accepting mediocre as being acceptable which is why we are heading backwards in terms of real progress. You will no doubt post otherwise, but this isn't limited to London (although it's worse than most) so save another round of the C70R pro London rhetoric for someone who gives a st what you think!
You must be very unhappy to stalk me like this. I feel very sorry for you.

Edited by C70R on Sunday 16th December 19:31

NomduJour

18,973 posts

258 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
I rarely bother driving in London. It’s a genuine inconvenience in contrast to other means of getting about

Conversely, I regularly drive in Zone 1 at the weekend (even if I don’t actually cover a great distance) - tube/bus/rail would be hugely inconvenient by comparison, and cabs cost a lot and still don’t offer anything like the same convenience. CZ and parking costs are a disincentive to doing the same midweek though.

Edited by NomduJour on Sunday 16th December 21:09

DonkeyApple

54,915 posts

168 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
NomduJour said:

Conversely, I regularly drive in Zone 1 at the weekend (even if I don’t actually cover a great distance) - tube/bus/rail would be hugely inconvenient by comparison, and cabs cost a lot and still don’t offer anything like the same convenience. CZ and parking costs are a disincentive to doing the same midweek though.

Edited by NomduJour on Sunday 16th December 21:09
I just found that Zone 1 suddenly became very busy at the weekends in the space of about a decade and when black cab apps appeared I leapt at never having to use the car. Especially as the days of just being able to park outside where you were going had gone.

mattcov

721 posts

225 months

Sunday 16th December 2018
quotequote all
In London you have generally good alternative transport options and its always been a pain driving there. The "Clear Air Zone" that they are doing in Birmingham will absolutely nail the city - the alternative transport options aren't there, there isn't the money or incentive to go there that London has and for the businesses that will be affected the most, it will be the final nail in the coffin for them.


DonkeyApple

54,915 posts

168 months

Monday 17th December 2018
quotequote all
mattcov said:
In London you have generally good alternative transport options and its always been a pain driving there. The "Clear Air Zone" that they are doing in Birmingham will absolutely nail the city - the alternative transport options aren't there, there isn't the money or incentive to go there that London has and for the businesses that will be affected the most, it will be the final nail in the coffin for them.
Yup. The impact, despite the complaints, many that are just daft will be minimal with regards to the London system. But no other major city in the U.K. has anywhere near the same pre-existing alternative transport structure and I can easily imagine that a similar type of system rolled out in somewhere like Birmingham will have genuine negative impacts.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 17th December 2018
quotequote all
C70R said:
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
They do a great job of moving several million people every day (in spite of their obvious limitations.
Leaving aside you being utterly in love with London and all who sail in her they really don't, you like so many others are just accepting mediocre as being acceptable which is why we are heading backwards in terms of real progress. You will no doubt post otherwise, but this isn't limited to London (although it's worse than most) so save another round of the C70R pro London rhetoric for someone who gives a st what you think!
You must be very unhappy to stalk me like this. I feel very sorry for you.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 16th December 19:31
Replying to posts where you think the poster's statements are one sided blinkered drivel and needs putting right is not stalking. HTH thumbup


DonkeyApple

54,915 posts

168 months

Monday 17th December 2018
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
1 So I completely dismiss any notion that cyclists or anyone else, is in any material danger from air pollution here in the UK by exercising outdoors.

I take my stance because:

2 Air quality is possibly the best it's ever been since records began.

The notion that air quality is getting worse is completely the opposite of the facts, but this is the message being pushed.

3 Vehicles overall are the cleanest they've ever been since records began* (with a proviso).

Vehicle overall are becoming and will become ever cleaner.

4 Electric vehicles are coming which could huge differences to levels of local pollution, even if they may poison other people elsewhere.

5 My proviso over vehicles - Imo the internet has played a significant factor in emissions, because up to just a short 20 years ago or so we could not buy unlimited tat and have it delivered to our doors, and nor could we recycle around the country the tat we don't like. I think it's amazing that I can have a small package of plastic widgets for my latest old car delivered to work for £2.99 all in, but how many diesel-powered miles have those widgets done, and where in the world did they originate? I've no idea, but I know I only paid £2.99 for them, including packing and single-use polythene packet.

I know there's no more hgvs on the roads than decades ago, but I think they're travelling many more miles and there's been a big growth in numbers of vans/light commercial traffic, and these may be the reasons why there's been a decline in the rates of improvements in air quality in the last few years (but still doesn't mean air quality is getting worse).

5 And of course, we could always copy Europe - close the shops on Sundays; stop most hgvs from operating on Sundays; get millions of people out of cars and onto bicycles, should they want to. And pick the sodding litter up! Birmingham is simply awash with litter, all decaying and decomposing and blown about by the wind. From what I'm seeing , this is an issue that western Europe has got sorted whilst the UK couldn't care less. There are many things that could be done, before penalising people who just want to go to work.

6 I just do not accept that. Particulates come with living on Planet Earth (dust being possibly the most common form of particulate), diesel and vehicle particulates has been with us for decades, and the only difference in recent years, according to the govt, is there's distinctly less of it nowadays.




Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 15th December 09:24


Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 15th December 11:20
1 You always dismiss any data or science that doesn’t support your quite extreme stances on subjects. But this particular bit of science is just too easy to understand for someone to logically attempt to dismiss. It’s just fact. When you exercise your alveoli open wider and you draw greater volumes of air into the lungs and deeper.

2 again, you are ignoring the science that does not fit your agenda. Plus, you have the very simplistic view that because something is better today there is no need to carry on trying to make it better tomorrow.

3 Yes. Vehicles are cleaner. Not hugely relevant if there are more of them and doing more short journeys. But you know this as you argue thisnon other threads where the different view supports that different argument.

4 EVs are coming. Thanks to govt legislation and taxation incentives. uLEZ being part of that.

5 stepping back in time and reversing Sunday hours or banging on about litter, along with forcing workers back into bicycles are just all a bit ‘old man ukippy’ to be honest. In previous posts you keenly point to Europe while totally ignoring the topography, geography, population density and demographic, wealth, urban layout or meteorology differences between cities but instead just blankly day we should just be like that city and those people. The world doesn’t work like that. Each city is an individual entity and requires bespoke solutions that move it forward.

6 Feel free to not accept another bit of proven science that you had never understood or heard of but would allow you to shape your view more realistically and to understand the actual relevance of issues being discussed. That is a shocking head in the sand type of thinking and frankly it all adds up to strongly suggest to me that you are not actually interesting in an open discussion but rather just have a fixed view and will randomly argue with ever weirder responses against anything that doesn’t agree, regardless of fact.
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