ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
jfire said:
Well I was reminded on here that I must have been an idiot for buying a diesel, as the plans had been around for years. All I knew was that my mate couldn't drive his van in London. I had no idea I'd be punished for owning a pre 2014 diesel car. Why would I?
Which pre-2014 diesel car? Interesting fact as Khan waffles on The Thames Barrier was designed to be OK until the early 2020's. The rate of Sea rise/land subsidence is such it's looking good to be in place and be effective until the late 2000's. So the question is what is the baseline that Khan and the Green lobby are using and is it totally unattainable in real life.
DonkeyApple said:
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before. It seems hard to imagine anyone living in or especially using a car in the proposed zone not having heard about it at some point over the last 5 years.
Leaving any protest to an 11th hour letter to the Times is really not the act of champions.
I like to think I'm reasonably well read and current on things. especially car related but I only found out about this 2 and a half years ago when it was arguably already too late. A lot of people I know still don't know about it and I've spent the last 2 years trying to tell people this is coming. A friend bought a 2013 range rover 4 months ago and lives inside the A406, he will be caught out by this and had no idea until I told him he wouldn't be able to drive the car he just bought in 3 years time and he wouldn't be able to sell it either so he'd just flushed £30k down the drain.Leaving any protest to an 11th hour letter to the Times is really not the act of champions.
The problem is in order to have a proper chance to change policy, it needs an early, concerted effort, unfortunately by the time it's fully gotten into the public awareness, it is usually already way too late. I think politicians are fully aware of this and use this time and again to push unpopular things like this through.
DonkeyApple said:
jfire said:
Well I was reminded on here that I must have been an idiot for buying a diesel, as the plans had been around for years. All I knew was that my mate couldn't drive his van in London. I had no idea I'd be punished for owning a pre 2014 diesel car. Why would I?
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before. It seems hard to imagine anyone living in or especially using a car in the proposed zone not having heard about it at some point over the last 5 years. Leaving any protest to an 11th hour letter to the Times is really not the act of champions.
Personally, I still don't think it's being clearly explained. There are plenty of people confused on this thread, for example.
bad company said:
I just signed the online petition to stop this:-
https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-kha...
You, and 23,000 others, are morons.https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-kha...
Nice to see that someone who lives in Suffolk thinks he should have a say about the air quality where I live. Perhaps I'll create a Change.org poll about the pedestrianisation of Bury St Edmunds market square?
DonkeyApple said:
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before.
This. Yet some here will use it as an opportunity to wade in on Khan. Tragic.For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
The ULEZ is only actually limited to the VERY centre of London - the bit with all the congestion, which is generally painful to drive in. I don't believe that any private car has a need to be in this Zone, unless being driven for work (in which case an employer would pick up the cost).
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 12th December 10:58
I took part in the consultation (don’t know why, I don’t live in London!) for the extension last year/ earlier this year, I was amazed there wasn’t more press and uproar.
I think people just didn’t realise it wasn’t about lorries but would affect normal cars.
It would have ground the motor trade to a complete stop in the south east if people had known about it sooner.
I think people just didn’t realise it wasn’t about lorries but would affect normal cars.
It would have ground the motor trade to a complete stop in the south east if people had known about it sooner.
C70R said:
This. Yet some here will use it as an opportunity to wade in on Khan. Tragic.
For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
You seem to fail to grasp the problem. Yes there are petrol cars available but a high percentage of people drive diesel cars now as a direct result of being heavily incentivised to do so by the government. Also a huge majority of commercial VAN's and cars etc are diesel with no real viable alternative. For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
Of course poor air quality is a real issue, everyone knows this but it was one that was largely caused by bad government policy in the first place, therefore can you not understand why people might be a just a bit bitter about the fact that we have to pay for the governments cock up both in terms of poor air quality and directly from our pockets to fix a problem they themselves created.
Guvernator said:
C70R said:
This. Yet some here will use it as an opportunity to wade in on Khan. Tragic.
For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
You seem to fail to grasp the problem. Yes there are petrol cars available but a high percentage of people drive diesel cars now as a direct result of being heavily incentivised to do so by the government. Also a huge majority of commercial VAN's and cars etc are diesel with no real viable alternative. For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
Of course poor air quality is a real issue, everyone knows this but it was one that was largely caused by bad government policy in the first place, therefore can you not understand why people might be a just a bit bitter about the fact that we have to pay for the governments cock up both in terms of poor air quality and directly from our pockets to fix a problem they themselves created.
If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.
It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.
C70R said:
DonkeyApple said:
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before.
This. Yet some here will use it as an opportunity to wade in on Khan. Tragic.For those who are bemoaning the ULEZ, it's almost always on purely selfish grounds. The ULEZ is for the good of everyone who lives in London - if you can't see that, then you don't deserve to drive in London at all.
"Why are you stopping ME from driving MY car of choice?"
"Why should I need to change MY car?"
"I want to drive where I want, and why should someone charge ME for it?"
The other side of the ire generally seems to be around (wilful?) misunderstanding of the restrictions. In practical terms, any petrol-engined car built after 2004 will be Euro4 compliant, and will be able to travel around the ULEZ without charge. If you don't want to comply, that's fine too - you can pay the charge when you enter.
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
For example, I think residents and near residents should have a discounted rate at weekends and non residents should pay double the standard rate.
Most resident cars are pretty stationary during the week and quite a few that aren’t could easily be. Those who don’t live in the area but drive in and pollute the area should be very heavily disincentivised, practically to the point of stating that anything non PEV by 2025 won’t be permitted fullstop.
Vans should be very specifically targeted with modest charges for genuine sole traders but preferably a tax incentive to upgrade to modern but vans linked to large companies such as Amazon should be extremely heavily penalised and again, a forced push to EV. Those firms would be forced to underwrite the cost as they would be too punitive for the driver, if an indy, to entertain.
Black cabs are being targeted but all of the older ones need to be gone and significant price advantage given to PEV.
Buses are being changed but again, no bus should be pulling away or sitting stationary using ICE. Ie all should be hybrid.
Minicabs. Should only be PEV by before 2025. And should be limited in numbers.
C70R said:
What does bitterness have to do with improving air quality? The answer, absolutely nothing. Therefore, what's the purpose of being consumed by anger at something which has ultimately good intentions?
If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.
It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.
What about the poor sods who bought diesels a few years ago thinking they were doing the right thing?If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.
It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.
C70R said:
DonkeyApple said:
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before.
This. Yet some here will use it as an opportunity to wade in on Khan. Tragic.Guvernator said:
DonkeyApple said:
The ULEZ was one of Boris’ big projects. It went out to consultation in 2014 and has been regularly covered by all London centric media since about 2013. In fact Ken Livinstone first mooted it years before. It seems hard to imagine anyone living in or especially using a car in the proposed zone not having heard about it at some point over the last 5 years.
Leaving any protest to an 11th hour letter to the Times is really not the act of champions.
I like to think I'm reasonably well read and current on things. especially car related but I only found out about this 2 and a half years ago when it was arguably already too late. A lot of people I know still don't know about it and I've spent the last 2 years trying to tell people this is coming. A friend bought a 2013 range rover 4 months ago and lives inside the A406, he will be caught out by this and had no idea until I told him he wouldn't be able to drive the car he just bought in 3 years time and he wouldn't be able to sell it either so he'd just flushed £30k down the drain.Leaving any protest to an 11th hour letter to the Times is really not the act of champions.
The problem is in order to have a proper chance to change policy, it needs an early, concerted effort, unfortunately by the time it's fully gotten into the public awareness, it is usually already way too late. I think politicians are fully aware of this and use this time and again to push unpopular things like this through.
People knew this was coming years ago and opted to do f
k all about it either through bone idleness or ignorance. Two qualities that London does not exist to reward and that are better suited to a life in the provinces. We should concern ourselves with the poor and desperate that this will impact but others really ought to just f
k off out of personal embarrassment at their abject ignorance or bone idleness. Sorry to be so blunt but for f
ks sake!C70R said:
The ULEZ is only actually limited to the VERY centre of London - the bit with all the congestion, which is generally painful to drive in.
Not quite true - here's a map: Edited by C70R on Wednesday 12th December 10:58
The CCZ is the very centre of london. The ULEZ is the south to north circulars. That's a much bigger area and catches a (by comparison) massively larger number of residents.
C70R said:
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 12th December 10:58
I only know about this because I frequent car forums and like bikes and cars.
The average motorist wouldn't even know what engine drove their car and most of my car owning non PH mates are shocked when I tell them about next year's ULEZ let alone this bigger one.
Tell a lot of my bike commuting workmates that their looked after pre 2007 motorbikes are going to cost them £12.50 a day as of Spring 2019, and watch their jaws drop.
The average motorist wouldn't even know what engine drove their car and most of my car owning non PH mates are shocked when I tell them about next year's ULEZ let alone this bigger one.
Tell a lot of my bike commuting workmates that their looked after pre 2007 motorbikes are going to cost them £12.50 a day as of Spring 2019, and watch their jaws drop.
Schmoopy said:
C70R said:
Why is it that such a hardship? The answer is that it really isn't. There are post-2004 petrol cars to suit every purpose and budget.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 12th December 10:58
Would you prefer that every car was stopped and tested on entry? Or should they do something which is actually manageable?
bad company said:
C70R said:
What does bitterness have to do with improving air quality? The answer, absolutely nothing. Therefore, what's the purpose of being consumed by anger at something which has ultimately good intentions?
If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.
It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.
What about the poor sods who bought diesels a few years ago thinking they were doing the right thing?If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.
It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.
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