Toshiba battery 6 minute charge 200 mile range soon...

[bristolracer]

HannsG said:

Ashtray83 said:

Kick and scream as much as you like! it's coming like it or not

I doubt electric transport will be viable in the next 20 years. Especially in this country...

If you can get 1 car in a 2 car house over to electric it will make some difference.

[J4CKO]

HannsG said:

Ashtray83 said:

Kick and scream as much as you like! it's coming like it or not

I doubt electric transport will be viable in the next 20 years. Especially in this country...

WIll tell the chap who sits behind me at work with the Tesla, the lady I know with a Nissan Leaf and all the other folk who seem to manage with these vehicles that arent viable.

They arent right for everybody yet, the balance will tip over time as the tech gets better, the prices drop and the IC engine gets legislated against, did you notice the congestion charge going to £21 something ? that is the latter happening.

It wont happen overnight, it wont involve a mass switchover but one day you will notice more, cheaper EV's available, better range, better charging times and your IC car seeming a bit of an expensive Dinosaur/Pariah, a E-piphany if you will....

[anonymous-user]

TooMany2cvs said:

32kWh in six minutes...

Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.

What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?

320kW is easy.


I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.

And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.

[bearman68]

J4CKO said:

WIll tell the chap who sits behind me at work with the Tesla, the lady I know with a Nissan Leaf and all the other folk who seem to manage with these vehicles that arent viable.

They arent right for everybody yet, the balance will tip over time as the tech gets better, the prices drop and the IC engine gets legislated against, did you notice the congestion charge going to £21 something ? that is the latter happening.

It wont happen overnight, it wont involve a mass switchover but one day you will notice more, cheaper EV's available, better range, better charging times and your IC car seeming a bit of an expensive Dinosaur/Pariah, a E-piphany if you will....

Maybe you're right. But there are still laws of physics that need to be overcome to fast charge 200 miles worth of batteries in 6 minutes. It requires a HUGE capital investment in infrastructure. FFS we can't even make the trains run on electric between Cardiff and Swansea, what chance do we have of making power supplies big enough to charge a battery like this? (Depending on charging voltage, possibly around 1300 amps). That's enough current to run a glass (melting) furnace.

[Pesty]

HannsG said:

I saw a Tesla on a charge point today.

I walked past thinking... What's the fking point?

Gimmick at best. Charging my work phone is a pain in the arse. God knows where you electric driving muppets find the time to wait for a mode of transport to charge up.

200 mile range? Oh yeah baby... Lol. Do you even Venture out of your back yard? Or do you all own a second car fueled by satans fuel for long haul trips?

Anyone heard of Petrol or diesel?????

Edited by HannsG on Monday 23 October 22:38

I drive approx 1k miles a week for work you? Typically 200 miles and an over night stay so 200 Range just about cuts it if I can charge it for a few hours at a hotel over night.

Hey guess what some people don't do big miles very often so a car like this would suit and if they did need more miles occasionally they could rent.

Wtf is it with this part of the forum where people are only able to see their own situations.

And nobody said it need be your only car.


Ps I own six currently so I'm sure I could sell a couple and replace with one electric car.

[dxg]

Interchangeable batteries. It has to be.

You're Toyota running your 'charge by the mile or the minute' personal transportation service.

Their electric autonomous vehicles remain constantly in service, circulating the populous and picking up fares. Every so often between jobs, they stop by a refuelling station where their battery pack is autonomously swapped out.

You just need to have more batteries than you do cars. You continuously, yet slowly, charge the batteries outside the cars.

Some careful demand modelling could even *reduce* the battery capacity to find the right trade-off between travelled distance (how far does a black cab drive in a day? Can't be that much...) and time out of service getting batteries swapped.

[TheDrBrian]

Max_Torque said:

TooMany2cvs said:

32kWh in six minutes...

Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.

What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?

320kW is easy.


I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.

And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.

I like the way you hand wave away two 7mm thick copper cables.

[wack]

I have no interest in electric cars until I'm forced into one because we all know 95% of us will be in a leaf or some other POS so the days of the enthusiast will be over but my technical question is , will the national grid be able to handle the amount of cars that are likely to be charged every day once it takes off and with very few new power stations being built how will we generate the electricity required.

Surely only nuclear can provide that kind of sustained power, sorry I'm late it wasn't windy so I couldn't charge my car up will be the new excuse

[babatunde]

wack said:

I have no interest in electric cars until I'm forced into one because we all know 95% of us will be in a leaf or some other POS so the days of the enthusiast will be over but my technical question is , will the national grid be able to handle the amount of cars that are likely to be charged every day once it takes off and with very few new power stations being built how will we generate the electricity required.

Surely only nuclear can provide that kind of sustained power, sorry I'm late it wasn't windy so I couldn't charge my car up will be the new excuse

If I could be bothered I would put together a debunk special about all the common fallacies regarding EVs, in fact I'm sure a google would discover that someone already has.... However there is no debating pure ignorance so I won't.

[Jonny_]

TooMany2cvs said:

32kWh in six minutes...

Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.

What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?

770A would be the current draw for 415v single phase, for 3 phase it'd be 445A. That's assuming power factor of 1; in reality it'll be more like 0.9 which brings the current draw up to 495A. Then there's the inherent inefficiency of the charger and the charging process of the battery, so to deliver that 32kWh charge in 6 minutes we're probably looking at something in the region of (lick finger and stick it in the air) 520ish amps.

Still a lot of amps!

Impressive technology though. Even if production version charging rates are throttled to a third of that, it's a big leap - and still a serious problem for the electricity distribution network if these high power chargers become commonplace.

[jamei303]

Imagine waiting for 6 minutes on a forecourt. Perhaps they've developed 60-second charging but the extra 5 minutes is a conspiracy to get you buying a Ginsters pasty and 2 litres of ready mixed screenwash for £7.99.

[akirk]

bristolracer said:

HannsG said:

Ashtray83 said:

Kick and scream as much as you like! it's coming like it or not

I doubt electric transport will be viable in the next 20 years. Especially in this country...

If you can get 1 car in a 2 car house over to electric it will make some difference.

you are right - should just about kill our electric supply system, or perhaps you know where this extra power is coming from?
so yes it will make some difference - brownouts / washing machines not working / lights dimming / etc. - electricity supply is on the edge now - there are c. 300x as many petrol cars as electric in the UK (and that includes lots of electric cars which are hybrids that may never be plugged in - certainly not all fully electric) if we moved over to electric - where is the infrastructure that would make it work?

Apparently 800,000 drivers run out of fuel every year (2015 stat.) electric is more difficult to anticipate as load can vary more - so expect that number to rise, and we won't see people wandering down to the local petrol station for a can of petrol (pocket full of AAs), so that dynamic will change

there is a considerable lack of joined up thinking in this debate - fuelled by political interest and pressure from interest groups. For example, environmental impact is measured as emissions from the car - yet that is a parochial small-minded way of thinking about it - yes, the Mayor of London gets brownie points for 'cleaner air' but what is the overall impact - it is far more complicated and has to look at lifetime impact of a car / impact of type of production of the electricity / environmental impact of manufacturing and disposal / etc.

In a 2012 paper published in the Yale Journal of Industrial Ecology, a team of researchers lead by Dr. Troy Hawkins gauged the overall environmental impact of the production of EVs.
" It finds that as a whole the global warming potential (GWP) of producing electric vehicles is in the region of 87-95 grams carbon dioxide equivalent per kilometer, of which battery production contributes roughly 40%. It is about twice the 43 g CO2~eq/km associated with the production of ICEVs"
"Conclusion: We can fairly conclude that whether or not buying an EV is an environmentally friendly decision depends on where you are in the world, and how sustainable power is there. EVs are significantly more pollutant than ICEVs in production phase; but they will make up for it over the course of their usage if they run on relatively clean power. If they do not, then they are found both to pollute more and cause more deaths than ICEVs."

The report c. 10 years ago (Dust to Dust) by CNW marketing research was one of the first to study lifetime impact of cars, including manufacturing and disposal - it concluded that you were less damaging to buy a Hummer than a Toyota Prius - primarily because of the environmental impact of manufacturing batteries etc. - now the reality is that some have discredited elements of that report (such as lifetime length assumptions for different cars), but there is also a lot in it which is worth considering - we are so focused on MPG and emissions at the tailpipe that we ignore the lifetime impact / the impact of where power will be generated / etc. - if we care going to be truly honest we need to look at both sets of information - maybe the decision will still be to reduce toxicity at the local level - but we need to understand that doing so shifts toxicity elsewhere - and that is being ignored...

the simple reality will always be that it would be better to be local (local car production / local use of cars / local work / less travel / etc.) than our current globalisation which is about profits for large corporates often at the expense of conditions elsewhere...

so, yes battery tech is getting cleverer, but the current conversation is naive, parochial and not large enough in scope

[windymissile]

dxg said:

Interchangeable batteries. It has to be.

You're Toyota running your 'charge by the mile or the minute' personal transportation service.

Their electric autonomous vehicles remain constantly in service, circulating the populous and picking up fares. Every so often between jobs, they stop by a refuelling station where their battery pack is autonomously swapped out.

You just need to have more batteries than you do cars. You continuously, yet slowly, charge the batteries outside the cars.

Some careful demand modelling could even *reduce* the battery capacity to find the right trade-off between travelled distance (how far does a black cab drive in a day? Can't be that much...) and time out of service getting batteries swapped.

I said this a couple of months ago in the other thread...

windymissile said:

I see it more like this:
Petrol cap location and size is almost standardised. Standardise the battery location and....
Imagine, you drive into the forecourt, land the rear two wheels into a divot / detent in the concrete. Simple enough for even the most technically challenged of drivers.
A jack device comes out of the floor and removes your "battery / capacitor / power supply" (delete as appropriate) and replaces it with a fresh one. You hand over the £10 and your old battery goes off to the fuel station's charging bank to be charged and then ready to be issued to the next punter in ~4 hours. Each pump would need 48 batteries at constant use at 5 minute change-out intervals.
Car does a self check of the battery you receive, if you're happy with the KWh you got for your tenner, you drive off for another 300 miles and repeat.

You wouldn't even need fancy machines if you were happy to have a forecourt attendant swap the battery out for you. It could be done with a simple adapted pallet truck.

Want extra range? "We have 500Kwh super lithium nano carbon Tesla batteries if sir would like to pay a premium...?"

All reachable within 5 years.

I won't buy one tho. I like my exhaust note too much. ??

WM

[CrutyRammers]

TooMany2cvs said:

Obviously, Joe Public wouldn't be allowed to handle the kit - it'd need to be specially trained staff...

"Fill 'er up, guv?"

But so were petrol pumps, for years. Self service didn't come in until the 80s.
As Max has posted in the past, the infrastructure humans have created to get oil out of the ground, turn it into petrol, transport it, and get it safely into cars, is phenomenal. Colossal. The largest structures ever built by man, costing untold billions. Thousands of miles of undersea pipeline. Massive ships. Millions of road and rail tankers. Huge refineries. A global network of petrol stations.

I'm sure we can work out some electric connections, even really hard ones.

[mx5nut]

HannsG said:

God knows where you electric driving muppets find the time to wait for a mode of transport to charge up.

At either end of the journey, I imagine. They must wonder where the rest of us find the time to break our journeys to stand around on petrol station forecourts waiting for the tank to fill.

HannsG said:

200 mile range? Oh yeah baby... Lol. Do you even Venture out of your back yard?

200 miles gets you from London to Leeds. You're on another planet if you think the average driver travels further than that in one journey.

HannsG said:

Anyone heard of Petrol or diesel?????

In a few generations it might be something you learn about in a museum.

[Krikkit]

TheDrBrian said:

Max_Torque said:

TooMany2cvs said:

32kWh in six minutes...

Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.

What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?

320kW is easy.


I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.

And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.

I like the way you hand wave away two 7mm thick copper cables.

Actually it's 4.8mm, call it 5 for comfort factor. Hardly insurmountable, is it?

[Dog Star]

Max_Torque said:

320kW is easy.


I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.

And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.

What happens when 10 cars on your street have these batteries/requirements? Or a housing estate?
What size are the conductors buried under the road supplying a small town or village going to be?

As an exercise - lets say that overnight in the UK there will be 5 million vehicles charging - anyone any idea how much electricity that uses? What's our capacity at night (I know there's a lot spare at night)?

[bearman68]

Dog Star said:

Max_Torque said:

320kW is easy.


I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.

And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.

What happens when 10 cars on your street have these batteries/requirements? Or a housing estate?
What size are the conductors buried under the road supplying a small town or village going to be?

As an exercise - lets say that overnight in the UK there will be 5 million vehicles charging - anyone any idea how much electricity that uses? What's our capacity at night (I know there's a lot spare at night)?

Max Torque is quite convinced about the merits of electric cars, and good luck to him / her. But a 6 minute charge is realistically impossible with domestic arrangements. We don't have 3 phase, even at 415v, so it's hard to see how we can benefit from a 6 min charge cycle with current infrastructure.
I suppose it's possible that some service stations will have the facility, and I can see that a 6 minute charge time has the potential, if not the practicality, to be a game changer.
In addition, the problem with charging the car at night, is that it uses 'dirty' electric as well, somewhat negating the benefit of the electric car in the first place. But hey, electric cars are the future, everyone says so.

[andyf1140]

akirk said:

so, yes battery tech is getting cleverer, but the current conversation is naive, parochial and not large enough in scope

Totally agree...

[bristolracer]

akirk said:

bristolracer said:

HannsG said:

Ashtray83 said:

Kick and scream as much as you like! it's coming like it or not

I doubt electric transport will be viable in the next 20 years. Especially in this country...

If you can get 1 car in a 2 car house over to electric it will make some difference.

you are right - should just about kill our electric supply system, or perhaps you know where this extra power is coming from?
so yes it will make some difference - brownouts / washing machines not working / lights dimming / etc. - electricity supply is on the edge now - there are c. 300x as many petrol cars as electric in the UK (and that includes lots of electric cars which are hybrids that may never be plugged in - certainly not all fully electric) if we moved over to electric - where is the infrastructure that would make it work?

Apparently 800,000 drivers run out of fuel every year (2015 stat.) electric is more difficult to anticipate as load can vary more - so expect that number to rise, and we won't see people wandering down to the local petrol station for a can of petrol (pocket full of AAs), so that dynamic will change

there is a considerable lack of joined up thinking in this debate - fuelled by political interest and pressure from interest groups. For example, environmental impact is measured as emissions from the car - yet that is a parochial small-minded way of thinking about it - yes, the Mayor of London gets brownie points for 'cleaner air' but what is the overall impact - it is far more complicated and has to look at lifetime impact of a car / impact of type of production of the electricity / environmental impact of manufacturing and disposal / etc.

In a 2012 paper published in the Yale Journal of Industrial Ecology, a team of researchers lead by Dr. Troy Hawkins gauged the overall environmental impact of the production of EVs.
" It finds that as a whole the global warming potential (GWP) of producing electric vehicles is in the region of 87-95 grams carbon dioxide equivalent per kilometer, of which battery production contributes roughly 40%. It is about twice the 43 g CO2~eq/km associated with the production of ICEVs"
"Conclusion: We can fairly conclude that whether or not buying an EV is an environmentally friendly decision depends on where you are in the world, and how sustainable power is there. EVs are significantly more pollutant than ICEVs in production phase; but they will make up for it over the course of their usage if they run on relatively clean power. If they do not, then they are found both to pollute more and cause more deaths than ICEVs."

The report c. 10 years ago (Dust to Dust) by CNW marketing research was one of the first to study lifetime impact of cars, including manufacturing and disposal - it concluded that you were less damaging to buy a Hummer than a Toyota Prius - primarily because of the environmental impact of manufacturing batteries etc. - now the reality is that some have discredited elements of that report (such as lifetime length assumptions for different cars), but there is also a lot in it which is worth considering - we are so focused on MPG and emissions at the tailpipe that we ignore the lifetime impact / the impact of where power will be generated / etc. - if we care going to be truly honest we need to look at both sets of information - maybe the decision will still be to reduce toxicity at the local level - but we need to understand that doing so shifts toxicity elsewhere - and that is being ignored...

the simple reality will always be that it would be better to be local (local car production / local use of cars / local work / less travel / etc.) than our current globalisation which is about profits for large corporates often at the expense of conditions elsewhere...

so, yes battery tech is getting cleverer, but the current conversation is naive, parochial and not large enough in scope

I do not disagree with you.
As you say the debate needs to widened.
we are simply moving the damage elsewhere,it allows a government to dodge a thorny subject and allows global business a chance to sell you something new with green label stuck on it.

I do however think that many families could replace 2nd cars with an ev or hybrid. I know we could, but I won't throw away her perfectly good car and replace with an ev until it dies, because I do understand that much of the pollution comes from the manufacturing and not the driving.