Toshiba battery 6 minute charge 200 mile range soon...
Discussion
The Wookie said:
https://www.bstpowergenerators.com/pages/1-000-amp...
A few of these in service station forecourts running off the tanks will do the job when fast charge EV’s become prevalent.........
geniusA few of these in service station forecourts running off the tanks will do the job when fast charge EV’s become prevalent.........
Edited by The Wookie on Monday 23 October 22:19
Even better you could tow one with you, so re-charge on the move!
Cant be plugging in AC as you will need a huge rectifier in the car. This will be DC connection at around 400vdc which most electric cars work at.
So the charger station will need a 3phase 500A ish charger .
For example a Nissan leaf will consume around 3kW for 8 hours to charge 40kWh batt. Theoretically 40kWh batt will need about 150kW -200kW from the grid for 10min charging and double that for 5-6 min.
You would need something like this - http://www.borri.it/product/rtb-e-dc-ups-50-1000a-...
The DC cable from the charger to the car will be substantial.
So the charger station will need a 3phase 500A ish charger .
For example a Nissan leaf will consume around 3kW for 8 hours to charge 40kWh batt. Theoretically 40kWh batt will need about 150kW -200kW from the grid for 10min charging and double that for 5-6 min.
You would need something like this - http://www.borri.it/product/rtb-e-dc-ups-50-1000a-...
The DC cable from the charger to the car will be substantial.
National Grid reckons that by 2030 they will need an additional 3.5 - 8GW of capacity (current peak demand is 60GW)
The new power station at Hinkley Point will add 3.2GW
by mid century they reckon that peak demand could be an additional 18GW (6 new nuclear power stations) Hinkley point cost is c. £20bn -> £120bn for the power stations. Energy industry current analysis is that if in 2035 1 in 3 cars sold is electric - that would need an additional 400,000 charging points -> £30bn
or the energy companies may decide when to charge your car, regardless or your decision - so you plug in on returning home at 6pm - needing the car to go out later to pick up your teenager after a party - but what is this?! the energy company has decided that you can't recharge until 2am - so the car won't work... mmm - really?!
And who is going to fund that? - Government? it would add 10% to our national debt (or an additional 8% of GDP) - to service that debt will cost c. £4bn p/a or just under 1% of Gov tax income...
there are a lot of interesting parts to this story which are ignored by those who have a personal stance / interest - is Electric better? well there is an argument that at the local level it will pollute less than a petrol / diesel car - ah okay - lets extrapolate that up to have all electric cars... - a few logic flaws there maybe?
Is anyone actually doing any form of joined up thinking?!
The new power station at Hinkley Point will add 3.2GW
by mid century they reckon that peak demand could be an additional 18GW (6 new nuclear power stations) Hinkley point cost is c. £20bn -> £120bn for the power stations. Energy industry current analysis is that if in 2035 1 in 3 cars sold is electric - that would need an additional 400,000 charging points -> £30bn
news article in guardian said:
The lowest estimates of extra demand assume that drivers charge their cars at off-peak times. Smart meters and time-of-day tariffs could incentivise owners to charge when wind and solar power are plentiful and electricity is cheaper.
Energy networks could also manage demand via automatic time-shift charging, whereby a car plugged in at home at 6pm is not actually charged until the early hours of the morning, when demand is low.
so - you will be financially penalised if you follow the normal pattern of going to work, returning and plugging in... and smart meters might incentivise you (surely not - whole new story, but we have been told that they are there to help you understand your consumption - not punish you if you don't meet some idealistic government pattern?!)Energy networks could also manage demand via automatic time-shift charging, whereby a car plugged in at home at 6pm is not actually charged until the early hours of the morning, when demand is low.
or the energy companies may decide when to charge your car, regardless or your decision - so you plug in on returning home at 6pm - needing the car to go out later to pick up your teenager after a party - but what is this?! the energy company has decided that you can't recharge until 2am - so the car won't work... mmm - really?!
And who is going to fund that? - Government? it would add 10% to our national debt (or an additional 8% of GDP) - to service that debt will cost c. £4bn p/a or just under 1% of Gov tax income...
same news article said:
The government recently announced £20m of funding to support research on vehicle-to-grid technology, where the grid could call on the power stored in the cars’ batteries to help cope with fluctuations from intermittent wind and solar farms.
so, it may be necessary to push electric back out of cars into the grid - if that is already being planned because the grid can't cope - how on earth is it going to cope with lots more electric cars?! And you are going to be right royally dumped in it when you come down in the morning to drive to a critical sales meeting with a client only to find that the government has sucked the electric out of your car - sorry, no go today folks... it wasn't windy last night!there are a lot of interesting parts to this story which are ignored by those who have a personal stance / interest - is Electric better? well there is an argument that at the local level it will pollute less than a petrol / diesel car - ah okay - lets extrapolate that up to have all electric cars... - a few logic flaws there maybe?
Is anyone actually doing any form of joined up thinking?!
Edited by akirk on Tuesday 24th October 10:46
HannsG said:
I doubt electric transport will be viable in the next 20 years. Especially in this country...
Lothian Bus in Edinburgh just revealed a fleet fo completely electric buses.120 mile range and rechargeable to 3-4 hrs. An average days travel for a city bus in the UK is 81 miles.
Seems OK to me.
https://www.airqualitynews.com/2017/09/28/electric...
I've said this literally 100 times already on other EV threads, but FAST CHARGING is not how people fill up their EVs in general.
I, (and many people like me), have owned an EV for several years and so far, i've never had to fast charge it. Because i'm a human, i have to sleep for 8 hours a day, every single day. So whilst i sleep, my car charges. And while the battery capacity in my EV gets bigger and bigger every year, i don't actually drive any further on an average day. My commute is 32miles away, and i use between 9 and 10 kWh every day. So all i need to replenish is that same amount of power used, no matter how big the battery in my car actually is.
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
This means that external fast chargers for EV are the "abnormal" charging method. The method you use occasionally when you need to drive further away from home. Now of course, people will need to charge away from home, but the vast majority of the charging will always be done relatively slowly at home (or close to home). Added to which, as more and more charging infrastructure springs up, in places like supermarket car parks, the possibilities for short top ups become more numerous. In fact, imagine a system where when you drive to the supermarket, you could sell some of the power in your EV that you know you don't need, to the people in the supermarket "fuel station" who do need it! The entire car park becomes a massive battery storage system!
I, (and many people like me), have owned an EV for several years and so far, i've never had to fast charge it. Because i'm a human, i have to sleep for 8 hours a day, every single day. So whilst i sleep, my car charges. And while the battery capacity in my EV gets bigger and bigger every year, i don't actually drive any further on an average day. My commute is 32miles away, and i use between 9 and 10 kWh every day. So all i need to replenish is that same amount of power used, no matter how big the battery in my car actually is.
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
This means that external fast chargers for EV are the "abnormal" charging method. The method you use occasionally when you need to drive further away from home. Now of course, people will need to charge away from home, but the vast majority of the charging will always be done relatively slowly at home (or close to home). Added to which, as more and more charging infrastructure springs up, in places like supermarket car parks, the possibilities for short top ups become more numerous. In fact, imagine a system where when you drive to the supermarket, you could sell some of the power in your EV that you know you don't need, to the people in the supermarket "fuel station" who do need it! The entire car park becomes a massive battery storage system!
Max_Torque said:
I've said this literally 100 times already on other EV threads, but FAST CHARGING is not how people fill up their EVs in general.
I, (and many people like me), have owned an EV for several years and so far, i've never had to fast charge it. Because i'm a human, i have to sleep for 8 hours a day, every single day. So whilst i sleep, my car charges. And while the battery capacity in my EV gets bigger and bigger every year, i don't actually drive any further on an average day. My commute is 32miles away, and i use between 9 and 10 kWh every day. So all i need to replenish is that same amount of power used, no matter how big the battery in my car actually is.
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
This means that external fast chargers for EV are the "abnormal" charging method. The method you use occasionally when you need to drive further away from home. Now of course, people will need to charge away from home, but the vast majority of the charging will always be done relatively slowly at home (or close to home). Added to which, as more and more charging infrastructure springs up, in places like supermarket car parks, the possibilities for short top ups become more numerous. In fact, imagine a system where when you drive to the supermarket, you could sell some of the power in your EV that you know you don't need, to the people in the supermarket "fuel station" who do need it! The entire car park becomes a massive battery storage system!
Dont be coming in here talking sense about actual experience, some folk dont like the idea of EV's, you will upset them.I, (and many people like me), have owned an EV for several years and so far, i've never had to fast charge it. Because i'm a human, i have to sleep for 8 hours a day, every single day. So whilst i sleep, my car charges. And while the battery capacity in my EV gets bigger and bigger every year, i don't actually drive any further on an average day. My commute is 32miles away, and i use between 9 and 10 kWh every day. So all i need to replenish is that same amount of power used, no matter how big the battery in my car actually is.
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
This means that external fast chargers for EV are the "abnormal" charging method. The method you use occasionally when you need to drive further away from home. Now of course, people will need to charge away from home, but the vast majority of the charging will always be done relatively slowly at home (or close to home). Added to which, as more and more charging infrastructure springs up, in places like supermarket car parks, the possibilities for short top ups become more numerous. In fact, imagine a system where when you drive to the supermarket, you could sell some of the power in your EV that you know you don't need, to the people in the supermarket "fuel station" who do need it! The entire car park becomes a massive battery storage system!
Max_Torque said:
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
I have never gone out of my way to find a petrol station.Not everyone has the same experiences or has to phaff around to refuel.
J4CKO said:
Dont be coming in here talking sense about actual experience, some folk dont like the idea of EV's, you will upset them.
You are correct. Sometimes emotions come in to play. I.e. We enjoy the experience of driving an ICE car. Unfortunately for the people who love EV's this simply won't compute.
We don't yet have enough evidence to show what is cleaner from raw supply to finished goods manufacturing and operating of vehicles.
We don't know how the power will be made to charge EV's etc. Most theories are guesses.
If people who like driving EV - do so because they enjoy the silence and instant torque etc. fair enough. Let's not make out that EV's are better for everyone's driving experience though. That's personal to however different people feel about driving.
akirk said:
Is anyone actually doing any form of joined up thinking?!
Funnily enough, yes!automated_and_electric_vehicles_bill
EUWideChargingNetwork
and lots more.
Stu08 said:
Max_Torque said:
You can't think of EVs like you do ICEs. The reason you wait till your ICE is pretty much empty (usually the point the light comes on) to fill up is precisely because you HAVE to go to a specific location to fill up and it's a phaff. (you can't do it at home) With an EV, your car is 100% charged every morning. No waiting, no phaff, nothing.
I have never gone out of my way to find a petrol station..
Max_Torque said:
unless you have a petrol pump literally next to your parking space at home or at work, then sorry, but every time you fill up you "go out of your way" (maybe as little at 100yards if you drive past a fuel station on your normal commute etc)
It's really not out of my way though? I am driving past the petrol station on-route. Based on that walking a few feet to plug your car in at home is also out of your way? You wouldn't have walked to the plug if you didn't need to charge? Surely stopping at services and plugging in is also going out of your way? It depends how you define things I guess.
Stu08 said:
You are correct. Sometimes emotions come in to play. I.e. We enjoy the experience of driving an ICE car.
Have you driven an EV? My i3 is brilliant fun to drive. (no, it's not an elise, but compared to say the equivalent ICE (bmw 1 series 2.0d say) it's got more character, and is more fun to drive, more of the time)Stu08 said:
Unfortunately for the people who love EV's this simply won't compute.
Most people are fully aware that the average car nut is "attached emotionally" to their car. But for every car nut, there are probably 10,000 people for whom a car is just white goods, a means to an end, no more. And when "they" all get EV's, the good news is that the pressure will come off ICE's and they will no longer be likely to be regulated out of existence. You can still ride a horse, or drive a traction engine if you want too, just for fun, and i see no reasons for EV's to change that with ICEs.
Stu08 said:
We don't yet have enough evidence to show what is cleaner from raw supply to finished goods manufacturing and operating of vehicles.
We do. Now that EVs are becoming mass produced like ICEs, the data now exists to look at their complete supply chain. Most up to date studies now put EVs at the very worst as equivalent to ICEs, but generally around 70% of the carbon footprint for their manufacturer because they are mechanically simpler, and there build can be more easily automated.Current real world (UK) in-use studies also show than, over an average year, a pure EV uses around 2.6x to 3x less total energy than an ICE powered equivalent car, thanks to regen braking, not having to warm up, not having to burn extra fuel to reduce tailpipe pollutant emissions, and not having large vehicle speed independent frictional losses in their powertrain.
Stu08 said:
We don't know how the power will be made to charge EV's etc. Most theories are guesses.
Again, yes we do. For example:
Our grid is 'Greening' as a type. And unlike your ICE, my EV gets greener automatically. It costs me nothing. Renewables are now undercutting conventional high carbon generation in terms of kWh/£, meaning there expansion will be continued for the foreseeable future.
Stu08 said:
If people who like driving EV - do so because they enjoy the silence and instant torque etc. fair enough. Let's not make out that EV's are better for everyone's driving experience though. That's personal to however different people feel about driving.
I have yet to see a single poster say "EVERYONE MUST BE MADE TO DRIVE AN EV"Can you show me that post?
There are about 30 million passenger cars on the UK roads. How many of them a "special" or "fun"? Even if we made a quarter or a Half of them, EV then we would make a huge difference to our overall carbon emissions and our our local air quality. We could do that (easily) with forcing a single "fun" car off the road........
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 24th October 12:12
I have driven PHEV in electric mode only and a Nissan Leaf - didn't enjoy it.
Lot's of graphs and charts doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Did you output that data in to charts / graphs yourself?
I haven't stated that anyone is saying all people should be in EV...........
Lot's of graphs and charts doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Did you output that data in to charts / graphs yourself?
I haven't stated that anyone is saying all people should be in EV...........
Edited by Stu08 on Tuesday 24th October 13:11
Like Max Torque said, EV ownership isnt being enforced, however, to me it will go like diesel over petrol did from say 1990, people weigh up the pros and cons based on cost, cost is based on the legislation to an extent, so that will be the catalyst for change over to EV's, it will take a while but its coming.
Whether you dont like it as an individual doesn't really matter, the change is based on the fact they are more efficient, quieter and simpler, there are six billion odd people on the planet, most dont have a car, many arent arsed how it moves and how it sounds,
Spock said
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
So what works best for the majority will be the default, there will still be the ability to drive an IC car for fun, but day to day normal driving I think will be largely EV based in twenty years. The grid will cope as there wont be a single day where everyone switches over, demand rises, capacity is added or energy is bought in, there is too much money at stake, the oil companies will need new stuff to do instead of pulling crude from the ground, they are re branding themselves and energy companies rather than oil.
The ultimate irony will be when we all take our final journeys in an electric hearse !
Whether you dont like it as an individual doesn't really matter, the change is based on the fact they are more efficient, quieter and simpler, there are six billion odd people on the planet, most dont have a car, many arent arsed how it moves and how it sounds,
Spock said
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
So what works best for the majority will be the default, there will still be the ability to drive an IC car for fun, but day to day normal driving I think will be largely EV based in twenty years. The grid will cope as there wont be a single day where everyone switches over, demand rises, capacity is added or energy is bought in, there is too much money at stake, the oil companies will need new stuff to do instead of pulling crude from the ground, they are re branding themselves and energy companies rather than oil.
The ultimate irony will be when we all take our final journeys in an electric hearse !
Dog Star said:
Max_Torque said:
320kW is easy.
I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.
And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.
What happens when 10 cars on your street have these batteries/requirements? Or a housing estate?I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.
And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.
What size are the conductors buried under the road supplying a small town or village going to be?
As an exercise - lets say that overnight in the UK there will be 5 million vehicles charging - anyone any idea how much electricity that uses? What's our capacity at night (I know there's a lot spare at night)?
Assuming all vehicles are BEV (which won't happen) thats about 30GWh total. Looking at a few scenarios for delivering 30GWh a day
> Spread evenly across the day would be 1.25GW.
> Confined to 12 hours per day it would be 2.5GW.
> Confined to just 6 hours overnight, then its 5GW.
IIRC we have about 10GW spare overnight so even if we were limited to just those hours we would have enough capacity. There are points in the day (especially winter) when changing might need to be throttled, but i suspect that will be managed by unit cost (ie making it cheaper at night).
That's assuming all cars are BEV only, which is I highly doubt will happen.
The size of cables needed will be linked to the power (rate of charge). If you want a 6 minute charge then you need big cables, if you want a 10 hour charge then on a small cable is needed.
Krikkit said:
TheDrBrian said:
Max_Torque said:
TooMany2cvs said:
32kWh in six minutes...
Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.
What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?
320kW is easy.Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.
What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?
I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.
And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Tuesday 24th October 13:20
I believe that my petrolhead credentials are in order. I've built and restored cars, there's a classic in the garage right now in pieces. I love the sound and fury of an historic racer, spitting out fuel on the overrun. I love manual gear shifts. I love the sound and the smell and the oil.
BUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
BUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
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