RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled
Discussion
dvs_dave said:
Not a Tesla fanboy, but I’m not sure all this gloating is warranted. The Model S has been on the road since 2012. When is the iPace actually going to be on the road.....2019? By any measure it has most certainly taken years (best part of a decade!) for the mainstream to come out with anything even remotely comparable.
Different business models and shareholder requirements though Dave. Tesla’s entire reason to exist has been to run a start up model and to define a segment of market. That’s wildly different from the incombants which are more yield stocks. The money put forward by investors is completely diffeeent. The mainstream firms haven’t been lagging through technology deficits but waiting until the market was deemed sufficiently mature for their business model. I don’t think it’s any surprise that all the incumbents are coming to the market at the same time as the key global cities are putting their new legislation into place. There was never a business case to deliver a product without that native demand and they’ve also been able to sit and watch Tesla for the last 5/6 years and gather greater understanding of what this impending new market will want.
While I can only applaud JLR’s efforts a £65k car with remaining range limitations (albeit rather minor) isn’t really the solution that’s going to bring EV’s to the masses where the average new price for a car is circa £30k.
It’s also going to take a brave manufacturer to warrant a battery in an EV which is used as a reserve store for the national grid, the exposure to premature failure could literally bankrupt a car firm if the grid put excessive charge cycles through it.
It’s also going to take a brave manufacturer to warrant a battery in an EV which is used as a reserve store for the national grid, the exposure to premature failure could literally bankrupt a car firm if the grid put excessive charge cycles through it.
Just a note on Tesla and how mainstream manufacturers have lagged behind them in terms of time, Tesla loses about the same around of money per year as JLR makes in profit (north of £1bn).
The reason that the mainstream manufacturers have not rushed into EV’s is that it’s completely unclear when they will become viable or indeed with the advent of driverless what they will look like (shared ownership/ordering EV on demand via an app/etc).
I personally see the real uptake in EV’s being relatively small battery models which will be city autonomous taxis on demand, if battery levels drop you are exchanged to another car and the low car autopilots to the nearest recharge bay.
They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
The reason that the mainstream manufacturers have not rushed into EV’s is that it’s completely unclear when they will become viable or indeed with the advent of driverless what they will look like (shared ownership/ordering EV on demand via an app/etc).
I personally see the real uptake in EV’s being relatively small battery models which will be city autonomous taxis on demand, if battery levels drop you are exchanged to another car and the low car autopilots to the nearest recharge bay.
They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
B17NNS said:
Just been through the build process on Jaguar's site.
Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Myself and one of my fellow Directors put a note of interest on one of these with Gaydon in 2016.Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Just configured mine and with grant it comes out at £61990.
borat52 said:
I personally see the real uptake in EV’s being relatively small battery models which will be city autonomous taxis on demand, if battery levels drop you are exchanged to another car and the low car autopilots to the nearest recharge bay.
They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
I suspect this is where we will end up. With no private transport and fleets of self managing minicabs. They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
The interesting dilemma for the industry at the moment is that the data shows that the average car user in the U.K. travels just 9 miles a day. In reality very large numbers of commuters and local shoppers only need a few miles of range each day but every so often there is a need for greater range. That’s the huge inefficiency of EVs and hybrids. You’re carrying around a huge excess weight and have spend a huge excess amount of money to cater at all times for the very few times. It’s like the U.K. investing in thousands of snow ploughs for the few days that it may or may not blanket snow across the country. Common sense says you invest in the probable but not the improbable or infrequent. Or it’s akin to a builder buying an expensive bit of kit that he must now store and may not use again for years when it makes much more economic sense to rent that kit when it’s needed.
So, do you spend a huge amount of money on buying extra batteries to give you that extra range when you do need it and spend 99% of the time lugging hugely heavy excess weight around and a load of dead money stuck in battery cells you only use occasionally and when you do you need to hunt for off-site charging points or does it make more sense to buy a hybrid that you can use as a pure EV 99%!of the time but instead of lugging expensive and heavy batteries around you’re lugging a small petrol engine that might be as heavy and expensive but is much more straight forward to recharge.
If we are completely honest, the plug in hybrid is possibly the better product. For many it might be the more cost effective of the two for lugging around all that excess weight and sunken money during 99% of usuage and for most it will be more convenient on the rarer, long journeys as it works seemlessly with the way the existing network is structured.
What I see going forward is two evolutions of the motor car from a branching point which is arguably now that sees hybrids and pure EVs as the two types going forward but Indont see the pure EV branch being the dominant product for decades and in its current form probably never.
DonkeyApple said:
borat52 said:
I personally see the real uptake in EV’s being relatively small battery models which will be city autonomous taxis on demand, if battery levels drop you are exchanged to another car and the low car autopilots to the nearest recharge bay.
They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
I suspect this is where we will end up. With no private transport and fleets of self managing minicabs. They’ll change the way we view car ownership IMHO.
The interesting dilemma for the industry at the moment is that the data shows that the average car user in the U.K. travels just 9 miles a day. In reality very large numbers of commuters and local shoppers only need a few miles of range each day but every so often there is a need for greater range. That’s the huge inefficiency of EVs and hybrids. You’re carrying around a huge excess weight and have spend a huge excess amount of money to cater at all times for the very few times. It’s like the U.K. investing in thousands of snow ploughs for the few days that it may or may not blanket snow across the country. Common sense says you invest in the probable but not the improbable or infrequent. Or it’s akin to a builder buying an expensive bit of kit that he must now store and may not use again for years when it makes much more economic sense to rent that kit when it’s needed.
So, do you spend a huge amount of money on buying extra batteries to give you that extra range when you do need it and spend 99% of the time lugging hugely heavy excess weight around and a load of dead money stuck in battery cells you only use occasionally and when you do you need to hunt for off-site charging points or does it make more sense to buy a hybrid that you can use as a pure EV 99%!of the time but instead of lugging expensive and heavy batteries around you’re lugging a small petrol engine that might be as heavy and expensive but is much more straight forward to recharge.
If we are completely honest, the plug in hybrid is possibly the better product. For many it might be the more cost effective of the two for lugging around all that excess weight and sunken money during 99% of usuage and for most it will be more convenient on the rarer, long journeys as it works seemlessly with the way the existing network is structured.
What I see going forward is two evolutions of the motor car from a branching point which is arguably now that sees hybrids and pure EVs as the two types going forward but Indont see the pure EV branch being the dominant product for decades and in its current form probably never.
lotus116tornado said:
B17NNS said:
Just been through the build process on Jaguar's site.
Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Myself and one of my fellow Directors put a note of interest on one of these with Gaydon in 2016.Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Just configured mine and with grant it comes out at £61990.
borat52 said:
It’s also going to take a brave manufacturer to warrant a battery in an EV which is used as a reserve store for the national grid, the exposure to premature failure could literally bankrupt a car firm if the grid put excessive charge cycles through it.
Nissan are brave then.... https://newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/media/...
There are already trials taking place, I think somewhere in the low countries is the biggest.
Condi said:
Nissan are brave then....
https://newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/media/...
There are already trials taking place, I think somewhere in the low countries is the biggest.
It's certainly technically possible, when you think it through it's impractical though and I have no idea who funded that test or the motivation behind it.https://newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/media/...
There are already trials taking place, I think somewhere in the low countries is the biggest.
Tesla are very firm in stating they do not see it as economically feasible due to premature battery degradation.
You then face the prospect as an EV owner of having to take the decision to allow the grid to cycle your battery on demand, leaving your battery potentially degraded, do they get to do this for free?
It's also not a total loss condition which is a problem, Telsa warrant a battery replacement if it drops under 70%. At the extreme 71% leaves your range depleted and that would only be accelerated by grid cycling the battery.
Jag's youtube video on the car. Probably already posted... https://youtu.be/xVahSvWpnyo
This car looks ace. I mostly drive 5 miles to work. Occasionally i drive 210 miles in a day... that would be fine!!
This would work for me in all but very exceptional circumstances.
This car looks ace. I mostly drive 5 miles to work. Occasionally i drive 210 miles in a day... that would be fine!!
This would work for me in all but very exceptional circumstances.
borat52 said:
It's certainly technically possible, when you think it through it's impractical though and I have no idea who funded that test or the motivation behind it.
Tesla are very firm in stating they do not see it as economically feasible due to premature battery degradation.
You then face the prospect as an EV owner of having to take the decision to allow the grid to cycle your battery on demand, leaving your battery potentially degraded, do they get to do this for free?
It's also not a total loss condition which is a problem, Telsa warrant a battery replacement if it drops under 70%. At the extreme 71% leaves your range depleted and that would only be accelerated by grid cycling the battery.
The motivation behind it is very simple, from a network operators point of view during the day the supply and demand of electric goes up and down, and so the grid has to respond by switching on or off power plants. During the evening time electric can be many times the price it is from 2am til 4am when nobody is using it. This means that the grid has to have the capacity - in terms of power stations - to cope with peak demand, and then turn them off when demand falls. If you can use the battery in an EV to store charge for use when power is expensive, then you need few power stations, and you can make better utlilsation of cheap power in the middle of the night. Tesla are very firm in stating they do not see it as economically feasible due to premature battery degradation.
You then face the prospect as an EV owner of having to take the decision to allow the grid to cycle your battery on demand, leaving your battery potentially degraded, do they get to do this for free?
It's also not a total loss condition which is a problem, Telsa warrant a battery replacement if it drops under 70%. At the extreme 71% leaves your range depleted and that would only be accelerated by grid cycling the battery.
Conversely in California, during sunny days their solar panels produce more power than the grid is using, so they are encouraging people to plug in their EVs at work so this power isnt wasted. Why not use some of that very cheap power later in the evening when the sun goes down?
Of course they dont get it for free, as an owner of the battery you're essentially buying cheap power and selling expensive power, and so get paid for doing so. It will be the future at some point soon, because in order for EV's to work, you cant have everyone plugging them in at 6pm when power demand is already at its peak.
borat52 said:
It's certainly technically possible, when you think it through it's impractical though and I have no idea who funded that test or the motivation behind it.
Tesla are very firm in stating they do not see it as economically feasible due to premature battery degradation.
You then face the prospect as an EV owner of having to take the decision to allow the grid to cycle your battery on demand, leaving your battery potentially degraded, do they get to do this for free?
It's also not a total loss condition which is a problem, Telsa warrant a battery replacement if it drops under 70%. At the extreme 71% leaves your range depleted and that would only be accelerated by grid cycling the battery.
Worth noting that electrochemical electron mobility is not linear with current draw. At low rates of exchange, the degradation is much slower. In fact, the reason most EVs have batteries that are not ageing as fast as was first feared is that most people are not using a high average power to drive their EV along. Take my little i3, it can draw up to 130 kW from the battery, which is sized to be able to supply that power level, but just driving along at flat road at 50 mph takes around 7 kW. Under than load, the battery is, relatively speaking, enormously over-sized, with each cell supplying just a few amps, rather than the several hundred amps for which it is ultimately capable.Tesla are very firm in stating they do not see it as economically feasible due to premature battery degradation.
You then face the prospect as an EV owner of having to take the decision to allow the grid to cycle your battery on demand, leaving your battery potentially degraded, do they get to do this for free?
It's also not a total loss condition which is a problem, Telsa warrant a battery replacement if it drops under 70%. At the extreme 71% leaves your range depleted and that would only be accelerated by grid cycling the battery.
And if you connect your car to your house, 7kW is a BIG load, equivalent to running a kettle, a toaster, and fan heater simultaneously. So, as long as the power harvesting is shared in a smart fashion, and the more EV's that are plugged in, the more the sharing can be done in that way, then i don't see massive problems with degredation.
it's also worth noting, that the average battery capacity in EVs is growing, my early i3 with just 22kWh, compared to most new EVs appearing with 60, 80 or even 100 kWh. That means even more battery capacity, more ultimate power, and even less aging if say 3kW is trickled out of it
I’m not that is the precise future. It’s probably more practical to use pricing to encourage EV owners to use their battery storage to minimise the power their house draws from the grid at key times. That can be done now without doing anything complex it just needs enough households to have EVs.
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