RE: PH Footnote: Continuation fever
Discussion
BarbaricAvatar said:
If they're not road-legal then i don't see the point.
Depends on the car but I would have thought that a very limited production run could certify the car under SVA or equivalent kit car rules.The engine would need to be emissions compliant to the standard which was applicable when the engine was made, so either an old engine could be found or a new one with modern emissions reduction equipment could be fitted
Whilst I understand/respect the craftsmanship that goes into manufacturing these continuation cars I simply don’t understand the value proposition. It’s like buying a painting without any provenance. A large part of the allure of vintage cars is the history that it carries. Without that (and indeed the fact that you cannot use it on the public road) it is just a piece of engineering art. Nice but not great and it would never be worth more than it would cost to build - so what is the point.
hornbaek said:
Whilst I understand/respect the craftsmanship that goes into manufacturing these continuation cars I simply don’t understand the value proposition. It’s like buying a painting without any provenance. A large part of the allure of vintage cars is the history that it carries. Without that (and indeed the fact that you cannot use it on the public road) it is just a piece of engineering art. Nice but not great and it would never be worth more than it would cost to build - so what is the point.
If you really had a hankering to drive a 250LM balls-out around your favourite circuit, would you want to do it in your £10,000,000, irreplaceable, delicate, real one or the sub-million part-for-part replica? I fear I'd have more fun in the latter.hornbaek said:
Whilst I understand/respect the craftsmanship that goes into manufacturing these continuation cars I simply don’t understand the value proposition. It’s like buying a painting without any provenance. A large part of the allure of vintage cars is the history that it carries. Without that (and indeed the fact that you cannot use it on the public road) it is just a piece of engineering art. Nice but not great and it would never be worth more than it would cost to build - so what is the point.
The provenance question isn't a good one as Ferarri would be making a Ferrari originally made by... Ferrari. If Picasso was still alive and decided to paint another 'Guernica' 80 years after painting the first one would that make it any less 'real'? Would its provenance be questioned? Regardless of some getting sniffy about watering down the legacy of the first one, its authenticity couldn't really be questioned!
The reason I use the art comparison is also because, for the most part, I believe these classic 60s Ferrari's should be compared more to artworks than to the function for which they were originally designed for; they are admired nowadays mainly for the fact they exist for their own sake, not really because they're amazingly great drives - hence wealthy people buying them and not using them but just owning them for the the value of their rarity.
I know, I know, some people do actually drive them but for the most part, we all know (and many on here complain about this with many rare cars, both new and old) that they're stored in humidity controlled, air-conditioned garages, rolled out to concours events and then rolled straight back into the private collections of the owners...
I think many people get confused between the different types of recreated cars:
At the very bottom end of the scale is an out and out replica, let’s use a Pilgrim Sumo AC Cobra replica as an example. This has a new chassis and body, and can use the parts of any donor car and as long as it passes the SVA, then it can be road registered on a Q-plate, effectively a car with no discerning historical identity.
The next level up is where the builder of said replica uses the same chassis and body as above, but utilizes the main components of one single donor car, let’s say a Rover SD1, so in goes the original V8 engine, gearbox, differential, perhaps suspension, axle, diff. The DVLA can then identify this car (oddly) as a 1980 Rover SD1 on a Suffix W plate. The DVLA then allows you to change the registration to anything older than the Suffix W, so in the instance of the AC Cobra, you could give it a Suffix B registration, making it look like a 1964 car. The car can be registered as either a Rover SD1, or a Pilgrim Sumo, or indeed whatever you try and get away with.
Still with me….
Then we move onto the Recreation, or Evocation, or if you are being poncy and Italian Evocazione. Let’s use a Ferrari now as an example. You take a ropey old 330 GT 2+2, the cheapest of the 1960’s V12 Ferrari. You take the engine, gearbox, diff, etc and refurbish them to brand new condition. A new chassis and body are built to factory specification as a tool room copy. This chassis is seen as a replacement chassis so can be inscribed with the original chassis number, built up as a brand new car, and dah-dah, you have a Ferrari 250 SWB. Again, you can then change the registration to whatever you like as long as the plate is older than the 1964 date on the donor. So because we are minted and trying to fool everyone, lets go with “8 SWB”. The car is registered as a Ferrari, and again, if you can get away with it, possibly even an SWB, but the engine capacity is still 3.3 litre, not 2.9 per the SWB. And the chassis number will obviously not fool anyone as an SWB either.
DB4 GT Zagato recreations, 250TR Evocazione, Eagle E-Type Speedster all fall into the category
So far, we are still road legal….
The continuation cars are entirely brand new. The engine block is a new cast, ditto the gearbox, and diff castings. Every single component is remanufactured by the original manufacturer. This is what makes them so ‘special’ and revered. But it is also what makes them not road legal in the UK. To be registered as a new car, they would need to pass all the regulations required which would involve considerable redesign of componentry to ensure that they are ‘safe’. The new Atlanta is an excellent example of what is possible but you will also see the compromises they have had to make to get it through registration:
https://www.atalantamotors.com/
So…..a new continuation 250 GTO, DB4 GT will not be road legal in the UK. That is not to say that it wouldn’t be road legal in another country, or indeed couldn’t go through a long convoluted process to be road legal. Watch the CarThrottle video on how a Vulcan was made Road Legal, it took some serious work. Why would you pay the huge sums of money to have a perfect 250 GTO, to then chop it up to get it road legal, and then chop it up again to get it looking original again…..and would it then fail it’s MOT in the subsequent year……
It is quite common for particularly keen Kit Car builders to build the car to SVA spec in Gelcoat, get it registered, then remove everything needed to pass the SVA, and they then cut slots for the period lights, bumpers, lose the fog lights, clean up the dash and then give the car a proper respray and retrim.
So that in a nutshell is it. I might have got some tiny details slightly wrong, but you get the gist. Most of these cars will be bought as museum pieces, track toys, or taken overseas. I think if you just wanted a race car, you could have a very good one built by GTO Engineering (FerrarI) or CKL (C/D/E-Type) or Kirkham (AC) and drive the door handles off them. And as someone intimated earlier, many of the ‘original’ cars at Goodwood are exactly that.
At the very bottom end of the scale is an out and out replica, let’s use a Pilgrim Sumo AC Cobra replica as an example. This has a new chassis and body, and can use the parts of any donor car and as long as it passes the SVA, then it can be road registered on a Q-plate, effectively a car with no discerning historical identity.
The next level up is where the builder of said replica uses the same chassis and body as above, but utilizes the main components of one single donor car, let’s say a Rover SD1, so in goes the original V8 engine, gearbox, differential, perhaps suspension, axle, diff. The DVLA can then identify this car (oddly) as a 1980 Rover SD1 on a Suffix W plate. The DVLA then allows you to change the registration to anything older than the Suffix W, so in the instance of the AC Cobra, you could give it a Suffix B registration, making it look like a 1964 car. The car can be registered as either a Rover SD1, or a Pilgrim Sumo, or indeed whatever you try and get away with.
Still with me….
Then we move onto the Recreation, or Evocation, or if you are being poncy and Italian Evocazione. Let’s use a Ferrari now as an example. You take a ropey old 330 GT 2+2, the cheapest of the 1960’s V12 Ferrari. You take the engine, gearbox, diff, etc and refurbish them to brand new condition. A new chassis and body are built to factory specification as a tool room copy. This chassis is seen as a replacement chassis so can be inscribed with the original chassis number, built up as a brand new car, and dah-dah, you have a Ferrari 250 SWB. Again, you can then change the registration to whatever you like as long as the plate is older than the 1964 date on the donor. So because we are minted and trying to fool everyone, lets go with “8 SWB”. The car is registered as a Ferrari, and again, if you can get away with it, possibly even an SWB, but the engine capacity is still 3.3 litre, not 2.9 per the SWB. And the chassis number will obviously not fool anyone as an SWB either.
DB4 GT Zagato recreations, 250TR Evocazione, Eagle E-Type Speedster all fall into the category
So far, we are still road legal….
The continuation cars are entirely brand new. The engine block is a new cast, ditto the gearbox, and diff castings. Every single component is remanufactured by the original manufacturer. This is what makes them so ‘special’ and revered. But it is also what makes them not road legal in the UK. To be registered as a new car, they would need to pass all the regulations required which would involve considerable redesign of componentry to ensure that they are ‘safe’. The new Atlanta is an excellent example of what is possible but you will also see the compromises they have had to make to get it through registration:
https://www.atalantamotors.com/
So…..a new continuation 250 GTO, DB4 GT will not be road legal in the UK. That is not to say that it wouldn’t be road legal in another country, or indeed couldn’t go through a long convoluted process to be road legal. Watch the CarThrottle video on how a Vulcan was made Road Legal, it took some serious work. Why would you pay the huge sums of money to have a perfect 250 GTO, to then chop it up to get it road legal, and then chop it up again to get it looking original again…..and would it then fail it’s MOT in the subsequent year……
It is quite common for particularly keen Kit Car builders to build the car to SVA spec in Gelcoat, get it registered, then remove everything needed to pass the SVA, and they then cut slots for the period lights, bumpers, lose the fog lights, clean up the dash and then give the car a proper respray and retrim.
So that in a nutshell is it. I might have got some tiny details slightly wrong, but you get the gist. Most of these cars will be bought as museum pieces, track toys, or taken overseas. I think if you just wanted a race car, you could have a very good one built by GTO Engineering (FerrarI) or CKL (C/D/E-Type) or Kirkham (AC) and drive the door handles off them. And as someone intimated earlier, many of the ‘original’ cars at Goodwood are exactly that.
As was pointed out in the TV programme about the "continuation" Lightweight Jaguar E-types, unless the original cars have been totally rebuilt using new metal then metal fatigue due to age would render them too dangerous to race - or possibly even for road use. So in order to be able to continue racing an original car safely you would have to have replaced all - or certainly most - of the structural metal. Is it then still "original"?
Do we want to see unsafe original cars racing? Obviously not. Do we want to see completely rebuilt (as opposed to restored for road use alone) cars like the Lightweight E-type being raced in relative safety. Please do not misunderstand: I am not suggesting they be brought up to modern safety standards with carbon/kevlar panels etc., but we do not want to see drivers, marshals or spectators killed or injured because a fifty or sixty year old chassis or monocoque breaks because of fatigue due to age.
I want to be able to carry on watching these types of car race. If that means owners of the originals have replicas made that are virtually indistinguishable, in preference to risking their multimillion pound original cars that's fine by me. If it means watching a bunch of "continuation" cars race then I am less certain. Perhaps I can be comfortable with Jaguar reasoning that they have merely completed the batch as originally intended although I need convincing. What I am sure about is that I don't like the idea proposed in earlier comments of a "continuation" car series, because where does that leave the owners of the original cars who have either had a replica built specially with which to race while their multimillion pound original stays in its carcoon environment or have had their original car rebuilt to a similar standard to these replicas - and perhaps equivalent to the continuation cars' standard too - and are prepared to risk racing it? In other words, are we enthusiasts willing to risk shutting out the owners of the rare original cars in favour of a race series for new cars manufactured deliberately for racing, but to an out-of-date (by fifty to sixty years) specification? If so, then where might this lead? Could these new "continuation" (or whatever they become called) cars be subsequently gradually updated towards modern standards. Because that's what happened back in the day.
Do we want to see unsafe original cars racing? Obviously not. Do we want to see completely rebuilt (as opposed to restored for road use alone) cars like the Lightweight E-type being raced in relative safety. Please do not misunderstand: I am not suggesting they be brought up to modern safety standards with carbon/kevlar panels etc., but we do not want to see drivers, marshals or spectators killed or injured because a fifty or sixty year old chassis or monocoque breaks because of fatigue due to age.
I want to be able to carry on watching these types of car race. If that means owners of the originals have replicas made that are virtually indistinguishable, in preference to risking their multimillion pound original cars that's fine by me. If it means watching a bunch of "continuation" cars race then I am less certain. Perhaps I can be comfortable with Jaguar reasoning that they have merely completed the batch as originally intended although I need convincing. What I am sure about is that I don't like the idea proposed in earlier comments of a "continuation" car series, because where does that leave the owners of the original cars who have either had a replica built specially with which to race while their multimillion pound original stays in its carcoon environment or have had their original car rebuilt to a similar standard to these replicas - and perhaps equivalent to the continuation cars' standard too - and are prepared to risk racing it? In other words, are we enthusiasts willing to risk shutting out the owners of the rare original cars in favour of a race series for new cars manufactured deliberately for racing, but to an out-of-date (by fifty to sixty years) specification? If so, then where might this lead? Could these new "continuation" (or whatever they become called) cars be subsequently gradually updated towards modern standards. Because that's what happened back in the day.
It doesn’t bother me that these cars are being made. It doesn’t surprise me that Ferrari are getting on board. They are Italian. What they say and what they do rarely correlate and like Lord March they will dance the jig for 50p and a slap on the arse when it comes to the crunch.
What is hopefully the real benefit from all of this is that younger craftsmen will be being trained up in skills that risk being lost in the West.
If building a run of continuation cars leads to a handful of the next generation having the financial incentive to learn the old skills and so long as new owners keep taking them out and bashing them up on the track to keep the work flow coming then this is a very good thing.
As for continuations of younger, more common cars? As someone pointed out above, if they cannot be driven on the road then there probably isn't the same market to make it viable but manufacturers are all getting on board with offering sanctioned or in-house restorations and putting key parts back into manufacture and the restomod market is booming so I think that side is well catered for and going to keep growing.
There are an ever growing number of us car enthusiasts who aren’t enthusiastic about modern cars and also aren’t enthusiastic about very old cars that are difficult to drive into the ground due to their values. But having a car from the 70s, 80s and 90s restores by the manufacturer and a sufficient supply of parts to just use that car as your every day vehicle is a market that is going to keep on growing as modern cars become more and more divorced from those eras.
I don’t think we need a continuation Mk1 Golf GTi. I think the market wants an as new, factory restored Mk1 GTi that can just be used to death or a restomodded base Golf that has been turned into your own dream GTi.
What is hopefully the real benefit from all of this is that younger craftsmen will be being trained up in skills that risk being lost in the West.
If building a run of continuation cars leads to a handful of the next generation having the financial incentive to learn the old skills and so long as new owners keep taking them out and bashing them up on the track to keep the work flow coming then this is a very good thing.
As for continuations of younger, more common cars? As someone pointed out above, if they cannot be driven on the road then there probably isn't the same market to make it viable but manufacturers are all getting on board with offering sanctioned or in-house restorations and putting key parts back into manufacture and the restomod market is booming so I think that side is well catered for and going to keep growing.
There are an ever growing number of us car enthusiasts who aren’t enthusiastic about modern cars and also aren’t enthusiastic about very old cars that are difficult to drive into the ground due to their values. But having a car from the 70s, 80s and 90s restores by the manufacturer and a sufficient supply of parts to just use that car as your every day vehicle is a market that is going to keep on growing as modern cars become more and more divorced from those eras.
I don’t think we need a continuation Mk1 Golf GTi. I think the market wants an as new, factory restored Mk1 GTi that can just be used to death or a restomodded base Golf that has been turned into your own dream GTi.
It's an interesting topic. These "continuation" cars are exclusive and priced accordingly, but what if I could walk into a BMW dealer and order an E30 evo or, even better, a Lancia Integrale or Porsche 993?
All of these way more appealing - to me - than the current offer.
Extending to two wheels, I'd pay the full price of a 450 4-stroke motocross bike for a new 1990 CR500 or KX500.
All of these way more appealing - to me - than the current offer.
Extending to two wheels, I'd pay the full price of a 450 4-stroke motocross bike for a new 1990 CR500 or KX500.
I wouldn't mind a proper attempt at an MG revival or perhaps more retro style modern cars. Such as the 500, beetle, mini and f type. Once upon a time you had the thunderbird, pt cruiser, crossfire, Prowler, Ford GaT and first version of the new mustang.
Maybe a new version of the Escort/Capri, MGB, Impala/Bel Air, Morris Minor, Corvette C1 or Firebird/Trans Am
Maybe a new version of the Escort/Capri, MGB, Impala/Bel Air, Morris Minor, Corvette C1 or Firebird/Trans Am
tch911 said:
I think many people get confused between the different types of recreated cars:
At the very bottom end of the scale is an out and out replica, let’s use a Pilgrim Sumo AC Cobra replica as an example. This has a new chassis and body, and can use the parts of any donor car and as long as it passes the SVA, then it can be road registered on a Q-plate, effectively a car with no discerning historical identity.
The next level up is where the builder of said replica uses the same chassis and body as above, but utilizes the main components of one single donor car, let’s say a Rover SD1, so in goes the original V8 engine, gearbox, differential, perhaps suspension, axle, diff. The DVLA can then identify this car (oddly) as a 1980 Rover SD1 on a Suffix W plate. The DVLA then allows you to change the registration to anything older than the Suffix W, so in the instance of the AC Cobra, you could give it a Suffix B registration, making it look like a 1964 car. The car can be registered as either a Rover SD1, or a Pilgrim Sumo, or indeed whatever you try and get away with.
Still with me….
Then we move onto the Recreation, or Evocation, or if you are being poncy and Italian Evocazione. Let’s use a Ferrari now as an example. You take a ropey old 330 GT 2+2, the cheapest of the 1960’s V12 Ferrari. You take the engine, gearbox, diff, etc and refurbish them to brand new condition. A new chassis and body are built to factory specification as a tool room copy. This chassis is seen as a replacement chassis so can be inscribed with the original chassis number, built up as a brand new car, and dah-dah, you have a Ferrari 250 SWB. Again, you can then change the registration to whatever you like as long as the plate is older than the 1964 date on the donor. So because we are minted and trying to fool everyone, lets go with “8 SWB”. The car is registered as a Ferrari, and again, if you can get away with it, possibly even an SWB, but the engine capacity is still 3.3 litre, not 2.9 per the SWB. And the chassis number will obviously not fool anyone as an SWB either.
DB4 GT Zagato recreations, 250TR Evocazione, Eagle E-Type Speedster all fall into the category
So far, we are still road legal….
The continuation cars are entirely brand new. The engine block is a new cast, ditto the gearbox, and diff castings. Every single component is remanufactured by the original manufacturer. This is what makes them so ‘special’ and revered. But it is also what makes them not road legal in the UK. To be registered as a new car, they would need to pass all the regulations required which would involve considerable redesign of componentry to ensure that they are ‘safe’. The new Atlanta is an excellent example of what is possible but you will also see the compromises they have had to make to get it through registration:
https://www.atalantamotors.com/
So…..a new continuation 250 GTO, DB4 GT will not be road legal in the UK. That is not to say that it wouldn’t be road legal in another country, or indeed couldn’t go through a long convoluted process to be road legal. Watch the CarThrottle video on how a Vulcan was made Road Legal, it took some serious work. Why would you pay the huge sums of money to have a perfect 250 GTO, to then chop it up to get it road legal, and then chop it up again to get it looking original again…..and would it then fail it’s MOT in the subsequent year……
It is quite common for particularly keen Kit Car builders to build the car to SVA spec in Gelcoat, get it registered, then remove everything needed to pass the SVA, and they then cut slots for the period lights, bumpers, lose the fog lights, clean up the dash and then give the car a proper respray and retrim.
So that in a nutshell is it. I might have got some tiny details slightly wrong, but you get the gist. Most of these cars will be bought as museum pieces, track toys, or taken overseas. I think if you just wanted a race car, you could have a very good one built by GTO Engineering (FerrarI) or CKL (C/D/E-Type) or Kirkham (AC) and drive the door handles off them. And as someone intimated earlier, many of the ‘original’ cars at Goodwood are exactly that.
This is a fantastic post. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write it.At the very bottom end of the scale is an out and out replica, let’s use a Pilgrim Sumo AC Cobra replica as an example. This has a new chassis and body, and can use the parts of any donor car and as long as it passes the SVA, then it can be road registered on a Q-plate, effectively a car with no discerning historical identity.
The next level up is where the builder of said replica uses the same chassis and body as above, but utilizes the main components of one single donor car, let’s say a Rover SD1, so in goes the original V8 engine, gearbox, differential, perhaps suspension, axle, diff. The DVLA can then identify this car (oddly) as a 1980 Rover SD1 on a Suffix W plate. The DVLA then allows you to change the registration to anything older than the Suffix W, so in the instance of the AC Cobra, you could give it a Suffix B registration, making it look like a 1964 car. The car can be registered as either a Rover SD1, or a Pilgrim Sumo, or indeed whatever you try and get away with.
Still with me….
Then we move onto the Recreation, or Evocation, or if you are being poncy and Italian Evocazione. Let’s use a Ferrari now as an example. You take a ropey old 330 GT 2+2, the cheapest of the 1960’s V12 Ferrari. You take the engine, gearbox, diff, etc and refurbish them to brand new condition. A new chassis and body are built to factory specification as a tool room copy. This chassis is seen as a replacement chassis so can be inscribed with the original chassis number, built up as a brand new car, and dah-dah, you have a Ferrari 250 SWB. Again, you can then change the registration to whatever you like as long as the plate is older than the 1964 date on the donor. So because we are minted and trying to fool everyone, lets go with “8 SWB”. The car is registered as a Ferrari, and again, if you can get away with it, possibly even an SWB, but the engine capacity is still 3.3 litre, not 2.9 per the SWB. And the chassis number will obviously not fool anyone as an SWB either.
DB4 GT Zagato recreations, 250TR Evocazione, Eagle E-Type Speedster all fall into the category
So far, we are still road legal….
The continuation cars are entirely brand new. The engine block is a new cast, ditto the gearbox, and diff castings. Every single component is remanufactured by the original manufacturer. This is what makes them so ‘special’ and revered. But it is also what makes them not road legal in the UK. To be registered as a new car, they would need to pass all the regulations required which would involve considerable redesign of componentry to ensure that they are ‘safe’. The new Atlanta is an excellent example of what is possible but you will also see the compromises they have had to make to get it through registration:
https://www.atalantamotors.com/
So…..a new continuation 250 GTO, DB4 GT will not be road legal in the UK. That is not to say that it wouldn’t be road legal in another country, or indeed couldn’t go through a long convoluted process to be road legal. Watch the CarThrottle video on how a Vulcan was made Road Legal, it took some serious work. Why would you pay the huge sums of money to have a perfect 250 GTO, to then chop it up to get it road legal, and then chop it up again to get it looking original again…..and would it then fail it’s MOT in the subsequent year……
It is quite common for particularly keen Kit Car builders to build the car to SVA spec in Gelcoat, get it registered, then remove everything needed to pass the SVA, and they then cut slots for the period lights, bumpers, lose the fog lights, clean up the dash and then give the car a proper respray and retrim.
So that in a nutshell is it. I might have got some tiny details slightly wrong, but you get the gist. Most of these cars will be bought as museum pieces, track toys, or taken overseas. I think if you just wanted a race car, you could have a very good one built by GTO Engineering (FerrarI) or CKL (C/D/E-Type) or Kirkham (AC) and drive the door handles off them. And as someone intimated earlier, many of the ‘original’ cars at Goodwood are exactly that.
LotusOmega375D said:
Finchingtons said:
Lord March said that these 'replicas' are not welcome at Goodwood
I think that ship sailed a long time ago!I have no issue with replicas racing in this manner, so long as they are accurate representations and to correct specs, but the charade that only originals can race at Goodwood is a bit whiffy.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff